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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 25, 2010 7:57:26 GMT 3
About the Revesz Laszlo book, I'm going to assume that since the photos in the video are related with the book, then it doesn't offer anything much newer than what is in the National Museum's "The Ancient Hungarians" book from 1996 (the materials are the same). Here's the link to the website of one of the ladies from magyar-sca: amagyarjurta.com/index.phpShe's the one who has done quite a bit of research and has some nice stuff on her website.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 25, 2010 8:20:20 GMT 3
Quotes from magyar-sca > Why do we think think conquest era magyars wore the double lapeled > kaftan? [...] > Did some archeologist just make it up and everyone else just copied > it?
Basically. Blame it on Laszlo Gyula, I believe. I mean, ok, he was doing the best he could based on his extensive archeological knowledge and experience, but it's still just his guess. And everyone else pretty much copied him, near as I can tell.
> I just wish they would dig up a whole raft of hungarians > with fully intact clothing. Is that asking too much? *grin*
My thinking exactly.
And then we get stuff like that link someone posted to the Hermitage museum and its 9th century silk kaftans, and I just turn green with envy. It's not fair!
Couldn't at least a couple of decently-dressed 10th century Hungarians have had the grace to get murdered in the middle of a swamp where they could be dug up all intact and everything? Or couldn't there have been at least one misguided tribal elder who decided to bury people in a low spot for a change? Why do all the cemeteries have to be so conscientously placed on high ground?
Weh.
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Post by chichak on Apr 26, 2010 18:55:58 GMT 3
I presume they of course did weave. Although I would say that wasn't the most typical. I'd rather say that leather appliqué work was widely used as ethnography suggests that basics of conquest age decoration have survived into the second half of the 19th century on simplest applqué work on leather coats. (Yes its a very interesting topic, perhaps suitable topic of discussion for a new thread). True, Hungarian decorative art was probably based upon Sassanian plant motifs, but as far as silk decoration goes I only found figural representations (mostly animals) typically framed by circular pearl motifs. Unfortunately I've only seen silks with exclusive use of plant motif on 13th century Arab representations. Naturally there would have been a high demand for these, because of the ban on figurative representations in the muslim world. It would be great to know about any private manufacturer(perhaps him/herself an enthusiast), who would produce Sassanian designs on individual orders. If there was one I'd buy fabrics too.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 27, 2010 6:53:23 GMT 3
I posted one of the fabrics I had found on magyar-sca, but the link is no longer working. I had a few more bookmarked a long time ago and am searching through my archives, but *shrug*.
There's companies doing Byzantine brocades that are easy to find in Google.
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 27, 2010 20:43:40 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 27, 2010 21:04:38 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 27, 2010 21:08:32 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 28, 2010 5:38:40 GMT 3
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Post by chichak on Apr 28, 2010 22:25:24 GMT 3
Hjernespiser, thank you very much, those were some fantastic links and info. Wow, well almost 400 bucks (4 meters) for a coat textile is somewhere near the once in a lifetime category for me, but let's see, maybe a bit of saving up might make me order one in the years ahead. As for what the lady at magyar-sca said about the double lapeled caftan, she is right in the sense that it might have not been the most common type of clothing. Although this particular woman's caftan reconstruction from Orosháza finds (on the right) bears signs that it probably was known:
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Post by chichak on Apr 28, 2010 22:34:57 GMT 3
I found an interesting reconstruction from the end of the eighties made by Győző Somogyi: Clothing of the "Bők" (nobility), and an old Hungarian term now considered archaism. Clothing of the warrior strata (it was captioned as "Jobbágy", but I have doubts about a term that was later used for serfs). Note how the warrior's clothing almost seems to resemble Buryat clothing, (especially the hat).
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Post by ALTAR on Apr 28, 2010 23:28:19 GMT 3
I found an interesting reconstruction from the end of the eighties made by Győző Somogyi: Clothing of the "Bők" (nobility), and an old Hungarian term now considered archaism. Chichak Thanks for all info & pics. Btwn Bök has same meaning with our Bey-Beğ(Anatolian Turkish)/Beg-Bek(Central Asian Turks languages) in Turkish.
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Post by chichak on Apr 29, 2010 0:37:42 GMT 3
You're welcome Altar! I've still got the most important part coming up and that will be the comparisons with other contemporary depictions.
Yes the root of the word is Turkic with the same meaning, but "Bők" is plural with the '-k' indicating plural in Hungarian here. The original Hungarian use of the term was "Bő" in singular and is a stem word for a number of words. In these words it functions to indicate 'positive increase' in something. Eg. "Bőség"(plenty), "bőven"(abundant), "bővít"(enlarge). In modern usage "bő" means "wide".
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 29, 2010 8:14:27 GMT 3
You'll like this: This is a fresco from the Qizil caves. Supposedly it depicts Tocharians dressed in Sassanian style from the 6th century AD. The figure on the right has what looks like crosses on his kaftan (in a Buddhist cave!). Maybe its Byzantine? The green kaftan is a little more difficult to see a discernable pattern on. Notice how the collar is a single lapel as if they just didn't button the top button, similar to the Alanic kaftan. Anyway, some of these examples are a few centuries too early, but I think they give a pretty good idea. We can go back to the 10th century Bulgars image (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bulgars.jpg) and get an idea of how the circle-with-image-in-the-middle Sassanian motif developed. As for the woman's kaftan reconstruction, the Khakas kaftan like in this image has always intrigued me and I wrote about it on magyar-sca: I think the frogged closure type was more in fashion followed by what we see on the Alanic kaftan. Also look at early Rus and Viking clothing. We can see, if not a frogged closure, imitation of it using bands of decorative fabric. (This isn't the picture I was looking for...)
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Post by chichak on Apr 29, 2010 9:41:40 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Apr 30, 2010 8:37:54 GMT 3
Chichak,
Sorry to be slightly off topic, but do you know if anyone sells "frieze" fabric for a szűr? My understanding is that this is a woven wool fabric that is subsequently felted.
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