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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 6, 2008 14:02:10 GMT 3
Greetings nikebg, welcome aboard  Plus, thank you for the share, looks like a nice book, I'm downloading all the pages now ;D |
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 6, 2008 17:07:27 GMT 3
yeah, great pictures, thanks.
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 6, 2008 17:33:50 GMT 3
btw could you please explain the flag seen on page 59? it looks like the three Lions of Swabia.
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Post by nikebg on Jun 6, 2008 19:24:52 GMT 3
As far as I see they've used a reversed version of the tsar's coat of arms, more specifically the version from the Armorial by Conrad Grünenberg. For more info on the medieval Bulgarian heraldry, check this site. Btw, it is also close to the English medieval arms, which are also similar.  |
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Post by Temüjin on Jun 6, 2008 23:09:37 GMT 3
mmmh, this is very intersting, on most it says "Emperor of Bulgarians". three black lions on yellow are also the coat of arms of Swabia. they are still seen in a more modern version on the recent coat of arms of the federal country of Baden-Württemberg:   a similar flag is also seen on a well-known picture showign an oxen-drawn Mongol ger. here's the reconstruction:  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 9, 2008 14:00:07 GMT 3
Very nice drawings |
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 9, 2008 19:43:53 GMT 3
those are totally awesome!  do you also know from which book they are? |
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gie
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Post by gie on Jul 10, 2008 18:11:33 GMT 3
those are totally awesome! do you also know from which book they are? Tatar-Mongol Armies of the X-XII Centuries  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 10, 2008 23:13:48 GMT 3
Gorelik is Number 1  |
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aba
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Post by aba on Jul 13, 2008 12:09:01 GMT 3
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 13, 2008 14:35:22 GMT 3
hello, thanks for sharing your pictures. i have to congratulate you for your bold undertaking, being interested in both Napoleonics and Steppe history. anyways, i don't know any good references about the dress of those three groupings, the only other good book i know is "Armies of the Nineteenth Century. The Armies of Asia: CENTRAL ASIA AND THE HIMALAYAN KINGDOMS" from Wargames Foundry. it has informations about Kazakhs (Khirgiz) and Khirgiz proper, but the book is rather expensive and it has no further info on Bashkirs nor Kalmyks. in the time period 1812-1814, Kalmyks were usually also already uniformed like Cossacks, they should therefore be easily identifiable. the issue of Bashkirs & "Kirghiz" (Kazakhs) is more difficult, because they tend to have very similar dress and because Kazakhs were always attached to Bashkir formations. Kazakhs are usually easy to identify due to their distinct headgear, but i have also seen many even stranger appearances in the Elberfelder Bilderhandschrift, similar to your first picture with the "Ku-Klux-Klan" horsemen. ;D this is a valuable source for the period 1813-1814 as it has numerous pictures of the allied armies including a lot of irregular horsemen, so you should probably get it if you don't have it already. i have also next to zero information about the so called Mesheriak units, i even don't know what mesheriaks even are, but i have seen them mentioned with the Russian reserve Army in Germany/Poland so maybe its possible they were drawn too, so the really odd figures could be them. from your pictures i can easily identifiy two Kazakhs (called Khirgiz by Russians), the rest are probably Bashkirs. in all events, bashkirs have formed the majority of irregular cavalry for Russia so if everythign else fails, it is probably best to refer to them as Bashkirs. www.flats-zinnfiguren.com/basch2.jpgfirst mounted figure from right, maybe also his neighbour with full beard (untypical). www.flats-zinnfiguren.com/schadow2.jpgthis could be a Kazakh, based on his fancy trouser. www.flats-zinnfiguren.com/basch6.jpg3rd from left is Kazakh. 4th and 5th from left as well as the first from right are definately Bashkirs, the others are more difficult. www.flats-zinnfiguren.com/basch1.jpgthose are actually Cossacks, they wear bad weather coats and have the typical full-beard and headgear of Cossacks. the figure in front in red is more difficult. pro-Cossack: full beard, weapons (no bow). contra-cossack: apparently shaven head, non-regulation headgear. this is either a Cossack officer in fancy dress or....  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jul 13, 2008 14:49:37 GMT 3
Greetings Aba, welcome aboard, and thanx for the share |
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aba
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Post by aba on Jul 13, 2008 20:25:03 GMT 3
Dear Temüjin, thank you for your response. I own the Elberfeld but irritating are different and somtimes probably wrong names of depicted units. For instance these www.napoleon-online.de/Sauerweid_Russen1807_Tafel8.jpgare refered to being "kalmouks" but are Kirghize (Kazakh) then. According to battle orders of 1812 there have been Bashkir and separate Kirghiz units. But when "mixed" units have been fielded it makes easier for me to take some of both. I will check "Armies of the Nineteenth Century. The Armies of Asia: CENTRAL ASIA AND THE HIMALAYAN KINGDOMS" as there are few to no sources to my knowledge. Thank you again Alexander |
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 14, 2008 19:44:56 GMT 3
Dear Temüjin, thank you for your response. I own the Elberfeld but irritating are different and somtimes probably wrong names of depicted units. yes i agree. in the edition that i have, basically every irregular horseman is called Bashkir, one that I would pretty much classify as Khirgiz proper (called Black Khirgiz by the Russians) is labeled as Buryat Mongol... separate kazakh units, thats new to me, i would have to check some OOBs, i only know of separate Crimean tatar Units and the Kalmyks. |
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