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Post by Temüjin on May 3, 2010 0:10:41 GMT 3
But perhaps the Romans heared Attila's name via the Goths who used their own version. Besides, we have many more Turkic names used by the Hun nobility before Attila's sons (such as Mundzukus [*Bončuq], Uldiz [*Yulduz], Atakam [*Ata Qam], Eskam [*Äš? Qam], etc). correct form i think is Uldin, which is germanic. i could also "germanize" some turkic names, like Yaman, one of my co-workers, could easily become Jamann (yes-man) for example, just playing around a bit. not even phonetically there's a change and suddenly you have a germanic name. there's no definite answer and for every name than can be explained with turkic words, you'll get the same number (sometimes the same name) explanations for germanic roots.
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Post by Temüjin on May 3, 2010 0:23:23 GMT 3
Regarding the "mir" stuff. Your "Sarmatian" theory needs much more solid ground. I think it's quite plausible that "mir" was just Germanic or Slavic at best. Interesting. Perhaps the -mir ending in the Slavic names is not the same -mir ending in the Germanic names. They only look the same. -mir is definately not germanic, -mer and -mar are. it's difficult to say if those ancient names really were -mir or instead -mer?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 3, 2010 15:41:24 GMT 3
correct form i think is Uldin, which is germanic. i could also "germanize" some turkic names, like Yaman, one of my co-workers, could easily become Jamann (yes-man) for example, just playing around a bit. not even phonetically there's a change and suddenly you have a germanic name. there's no definite answer and for every name than can be explained with turkic words, you'll get the same number (sometimes the same name) explanations for germanic roots. I just checked Ahmet Caferoğlu's book Avrupa Hun İmparatorluğu ("European Hun Empire") for his name. Appearently, his name is recorded in various sources as Uldis, Uldes, Uldin and Huldin; Gerhard Dörfer and B. Szász identified it as Turkic Uldïz while Omeljan Pricak Омелян Пріцак identified it as "Hunnic" Öldin which might have been related with Bulgar Ultzindur (*Öljindür). Btw, what does Uldin mean in Germanic?
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Post by sarmat on May 3, 2010 16:27:37 GMT 3
-mir is definately not germanic, -mer and -mar are. it's difficult to say if those ancient names really were -mir or instead -mer? May be it's a source of the confusion. Because I don't see such a big difference between "mer" and "mir" for the Slavic ear. "Vladimer" would sound almost complitely the same as Vladimir. So may be Slavs just took Germanic "mer" and corrupted it, into "mir" or smth. like that...
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Post by hjernespiser on May 3, 2010 22:12:09 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 4, 2010 23:53:12 GMT 3
Great, I have the book itself but hadn't seen the online version of the names section, thanx
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Post by Temüjin on May 5, 2010 21:56:24 GMT 3
If you look at the names they as rule consist of the words from the same language. You can't see the names which are for example half Slavic half German or half Turkic half Slavic etc. There are no names like Slavoberg or Kriegmir etc. but there is, i mean what does Theodemir mean in slavic? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemir_%28disambiguation%29you can also see in the link various spellings...
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Post by Temüjin on May 5, 2010 22:00:56 GMT 3
Btw, what does Uldin mean in Germanic? not sure, but Ulrich means something along the lines of first-born.
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Post by sarmat on May 5, 2010 22:19:02 GMT 3
If you look at the names they as rule consist of the words from the same language. You can't see the names which are for example half Slavic half German or half Turkic half Slavic etc. There are no names like Slavoberg or Kriegmir etc. but there is, i mean what does Theodemir mean in slavic? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodemir_%28disambiguation%29you can also see in the link various spellings... But Theodemir isn't Slavic it's Germanic, isn't it? So it doesn't have a meaning in Slavic... I meant that all the Slavic names with "mir" , including those you listed for Croatian rulers, have meanings.
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Post by sarmat on May 5, 2010 22:32:49 GMT 3
Yeah, this name in Gothic should look something like Thiudamar "thiuds" meaning "the tribe, the people" in Gothic and "mar" - "glory, fame"
I don't see other "alien" roots in this name, both are Gothic.
I am almost sure now that "mir" in all of those Gothic and other ancient Germanic names, is just a corrupt form indigenous Germanic "mari/meri", etc. We don't need to look for some Steppe, Slavic, etc. connections.
Besides, since all of the names were recorded by those "Latin" chronists, it's just obvious that they corrupted original Germanic pronouncation to make it fit into Latin language "standards" like with "Thiudarieks" who was transformed into a "Theodoric" in all those Latin language chronicles. So, likewise all those "barbaric" "clumsy" Gothic names with "mar, meri etc." were recorded with more "neat" "mir" names...
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Post by hjernespiser on May 6, 2010 1:06:45 GMT 3
Theod and Thiud mean the same thing. Folk, people, etc. Theod is Old English/Anglo-Saxon.
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Post by sarmat on May 6, 2010 3:00:48 GMT 3
I doubt that Byzantine and Frankish chronists who wrote in Latin or Greek had any familiarity with Old English/Anglo-Saxon.
On the other hand, I can clearly see that in this case, "Thiudarieks" was just stylized in order to bring it closer to the Christian name "Theodore."
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Post by Temüjin on May 10, 2010 22:48:00 GMT 3
I am almost sure now that "mir" in all of those Gothic and other ancient Germanic names, is just a corrupt form indigenous Germanic "mari/meri", etc. We don't need to look for some Steppe, Slavic, etc. connections. yeah i guess those are just coincidences...though it remains open to debate if Hun Balamir is then Germanic or slavic. i would go with the former, because of all the other possible Hun names of germanic origin.
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Post by sarmat on May 11, 2010 23:23:29 GMT 3
Hard to tell, most likely, Germanic. But there are some recorded "Hunnish words" which are clearly Slavic like the word "strava" which according to Jordannes was "a feast" in Hunnish language and also means feast or meal in Slavic languages...
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Post by Temüjin on May 12, 2010 23:05:00 GMT 3
yeah that's interesting. there are only three known Hun words, other than the Hun names, and none of them seem turkic. the Huns remain linguistically and otherwise a total mystery...
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