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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2010 16:39:30 GMT 3
Jordanes was writing in Latin. But there were no any reasons for him to be influenced by West Germanic languages. Gothic was still widely spoken and used in the East Roman Empire at that time. Actually, wiki writes about this problem. Seems that there were no z-r changes in Gothic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_languageProto-Germanic *z remains in Gothic as z or is devoiced to s. In North and West Germanic, *z > r. E.g. Gothic drus (fall), Old English dryre.
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 22, 2010 18:28:17 GMT 3
That -z/-r sound change in Germanic reminds me the same thing in Old Turkic. yeah, funny that, and both had the runic alphabet...it's almost like the Germans & Turks went to the same school or something
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 22, 2010 18:37:41 GMT 3
Slavic connection is just the most plausible and natural if 'mir' wasn't Eastern Germanic. I don't know any Scytho-Sarmatian names with that root. well, i don't think so. -mir is NOW most commonly used amongst Slavs, but that doesn't mean it is inherently slavic. like is said, first usage was by a Hun & Frank (probably), then for three generations with the Eastern Goths (and then never again), and still several centuries later with asorted groups of Slavs, notably the Croats. other than that, i don't really see the point why the Goths, Franks or Huns would want to adopt a Slavic name, as Slavs were culturally and socio-politically equal or lower to Germanic people, or even inferior (to Steppe people). i think we also need a topic on the Steppe influence on Slavic people, because that crosses over into this discussion. also, what exactly is the Slavic meaning of Vladimir (peaceful ruler, ruler of the world?) and why is it not used by other slavic people? do other slavic people have different words for that? does Ukrainian Volodemyr have the same meaning in Ukrainian as Vladimir in Russian?
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 22, 2010 19:02:25 GMT 3
Hrm, how is the name Vladislas related to Vladimir?
The phonological process by which a consonant changes into an -r (and visa versa) is rather widespread. I remember thinking how crazy it was that a -z could become an -r as the two sounds didn't seem to relate.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2010 19:20:56 GMT 3
Hrm, how is the name Vladislas related to Vladimir? The phonological process by which a consonant changes into an -r (and visa versa) is rather widespread. I remember thinking how crazy it was that a -z could become an -r as the two sounds didn't seem to relate. It's related only by the root "vlad." Which means owner, lord, possessor, etc. Vladimir means "the Master (Lord) of the World," Vladislav means "the Lord of Glory," slava means glory.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2010 19:43:13 GMT 3
well, i don't think so. -mir is NOW most commonly used amongst Slavs, but that doesn't mean it is inherently slavic. ? Well. Of course, I can't claim that it's 100% Slavic etc. But "mir" is believed to be inherently Balto-Slavic, besides, Slavic languages only Balts have them. So, it's either Slavic or Germanic like is said, first usage was by a Hun & Frank (probably),? Well. It's just the first recorded usage (I thought BTW that Gothic use of it should predate the Frankish one). The problem with the Slavic sources is just that they come chronologically later. But that doesn't mean that the name wasn't used before. then for three generations with the Eastern Goths (and then never again), and still several centuries later with asorted groups of Slavs, notably the Croats.? Why Croats are notable for using "mir" ? other than that, i don't really see the point why the Goths, Franks or Huns would want to adopt a Slavic name, as Slavs were culturally and socio-politically equal or lower to Germanic people, or even inferior (to Steppe people). ? For the same reasons as Varangians adobted Slavic names later. Were Sarmatians not culturally and socio-politically equal to Goths? In fact, it's believed that many Scytho-Sarmatian tribes were in fact Slavic, like Scythian-plowmen mentioned by Herodotus. Or Antes were Sarmato-Slavics as well. How Sarmatian origin of "mir" better than Slavic? Goths lived among Slavs for 2 centuries. It's nothing surprising that some of their names could be influenced by Slavic languages. It's not like all the Gothic names suddenly became Slavic. Just a couple of names don't change picture that much. Besides, Goths definitely underwent some cultural exchange with Slavs, if even their word for sword was Slavic in origin. i think we also need a topic on the Steppe influence on Slavic people, because that crosses over into this discussion. also, what exactly is the Slavic meaning of Vladimir (peaceful ruler, ruler of the world?)? It's ruler of the world and why is it not used by other slavic people? do other slavic people have different words for that? does Ukrainian Volodemyr have the same meaning in Ukrainian as Vladimir in Russian? No. This name is understandable for all Slavic people. And it's used by Southern Slavs and sometimes Western Slavs as well. Volodemyr is the same with Vladimir. In fact it should be Volodimir, not Volodemyr.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 23, 2010 0:28:07 GMT 3
While thinking about Vladimir (which is also my name BTW :-)) I did some additional internet research. And it seems, that "mir" could, in fact, be Germanic and come from Germanic "mari/meri"- "fame" Like in the names Valdemar or Adelmar. So, "mir" could be just a Gothic variation of general Germanic "mar" used in names; and we don't have to look for Slavic or other cognates.
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 23, 2010 2:36:33 GMT 3
Proto-Germanic: *meiz=, *maizia-, *maista-; *mērī, *mēri
Meaning: more, most IE etymology: Gothic: comp. mais adv. `more', maiza adj. `greater, larger', sup. maist-s adj. `greatest, best'; { mēr-s `beroemd' }; mērjan wk. `proclaim' Old Norse: mǟra `preisen, loben'; meir adv. `mehr'; meiri adj. `mehr, grösser'; mest-r adj. `meisster, grösster, besser', mest adv.; mǟr-r `berühmt' Norwegian: meir adv., adj. `mehr' Swedish: mer `mehr'; mer(a) adj. `mehr, grösser' Old Danish: Run. -mariR, ? mariha Danish: mer `mehr' Old English: mā adv. `more', māra, mǟst (māst) adj., adv.; { mǟre `beroemd' } English: more, most Old Frisian: mēr, mē, mār, mā; māra; māst; mēre n. `tijding' Old Saxon: mārian `verkünden'; mēr, mēro, mēst; mēro; māri `beroemd'; mēst adj., adv. Middle Dutch: meer; mēre, meest; māre f. `vermaardheit, gerucht, tijding, vermaarde gebeurtenis'; māre `beroemd, vermaard, roemvol, bekend' Dutch: meer, meest; mare, maar f. Old Franconian: meist Middle Low German: mēr, mē, mēre adj. `verhaal, bericht, gerucht'; adv.; mēst Old High German: mēro, mēra adj., mēr adv. (8.Jh.); meisto adj. (8.Jh.), meist adv. (8./9.Jh.); -mār: Folk-mār, Hlodo-mār usw.; māren `verkünden'; mārī f., māri n. `gerucht, bericht'; māri `beroemd' Middle High German: mē, mēr adj., mēre adv.; meist adj., meist(e) adv. German: mehr, meist; { Mähre }
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 23, 2010 2:37:50 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 23, 2010 2:40:34 GMT 3
Maybe it really is the Germanic element for sea/moor. Lord of the Meotis marshes!
Proto-Germanic: *mari-z, *mari, *mariska-z, *mōra-z, -n, *mōri-z, *mōriōn Meaning: lake, sea, moor IE etymology: Gothic: *mari-saiw-s m. `lake'; marī f. (n) `see' Old Norse: mar-r, gen. marar m. `Meer, See'; mȫr-r f. `Sumpfland' Norwegian: mar; möra f.; dial. mōr `Buschwald' Swedish: mar-; dial. mar `Moor, Sumpf, Morast'; dial. mōr `Buschwald' Danish: mar-; dial. mare `Moor, Sumpf, Morast' Old English: mere (märe), -es m., f.(?) `sea; mere, lake; artificial pool, cistern', mersc, -es m. `marsh', mōr, -ss m. `moor, waste and damp land; high waste ground, mountain' English: mere Old Frisian: mar m. `Teich, Graben' East Frisian: mare `gracht, afwatering', Fris mar `meer' Old Saxon: meri n., m. `Meer', mōr n. `Moor' Middle Dutch: mēre n., f. `meer, zee'; maer, māre `plas, poel, meer, moeras; wetering'; Kil. moerasch; maras, marasch, mares m., n. `moeras; meer'; moer `slijk, moeras' Dutch: meer n.; maar f. `gracht, afvoerkanaal'; moeras n.; dial. moer n. `veengrond, veenmoeras' Middle Low German: mēr `Meer'; marsch, mersch `Sumpf'; mare `gracht, afwatering'; mōr Old High German: { mari }, meri m., n. `Meer' (8.Jh.); { marī, merī `Meer' }; muor n. `Sumpf, Morast, Moor' (9.Jh.); salz-muorra `Salzsumpf' Middle High German: mɛr st. n. 'das meer'; muor st. n. 'sumpf, morast, moor; meer' German: Meer n.; [ Moor n. < LG ]; dial. Nuer `Sumpf, Moor', keuls. maar `Meer'
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 23, 2010 12:22:01 GMT 3
lol yes ;D
Actually it's not so hard for both sounds to change with each other because both are made from very close parts of the mouth.
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 25, 2010 20:49:46 GMT 3
While thinking about Vladimir (which is also my name BTW :-)) I did some additional internet research. And it seems, that "mir" could, in fact, be Germanic and come from Germanic "mari/meri"- "fame" Like in the names Valdemar or Adelmar. So, "mir" could be just a Gothic variation of general Germanic "mar" used in names; and we don't have to look for Slavic or other cognates. i think it's pretty save to say that Germanic Valdemar actually comes from Slavic Vladimir. the first ruler by this name was Valdemar the Great of Denmark and his mother was the granddaughter of grand prince Vladimir the great of Kiev, that's no coincidence. Valdemar CAN be translated by using Germanic words but that's might as well just be coincidence or the name was derivated to have a meaning in Germanic (Danish). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valdemar_I_of_Denmark
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Post by Temüjin on Mar 25, 2010 21:02:49 GMT 3
it would be interesting to assume the -mir ending means sea/moor, because that would give an arbitrary connection with subsequent ruler who prominently used that element, like Dengizich, Köl Tigin and Chinggis Qaan
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Post by sarmat on Mar 25, 2010 21:03:33 GMT 3
Yeah, I know there are two possibilities. But the fact is that there was the use of "mar" in Germanic names. May be even if there wasn't "indigenous Germanic" Valdemar, then it's Adelmar...
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 26, 2010 11:22:33 GMT 3
it would be interesting to assume the -mir ending means sea/moor, because that would give an arbitrary connection with subsequent ruler who prominently used that element, like Dengizich, Köl Tigin and Chinggis Qaan Yes, why not?
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