What were the facial charateristic of the Jurchens

[mew]

I know that the Manchus are the descendants of the Jurchens, but most of them looks really sinified now. So I was wondering...Were the ancient Jurchens when they conquer China during the Song dynasty really Chinese looking? Are there any unique traits they possesed?

Thank for answering my questions!

[Subu'atai]

Genes can be mixed but never destroyed, sometimes it may even take generations to show. You can (if you travel) already notice the general physical differences between northern Chinese and southern Chinese. Anymore then that, everything is guesswork.

[mew]

I do know that Northern Chinese have slits for eyes, and Manchu looks really like Northern Chinese -But then I heard that Jurchens were suppose to have amber eyes and a lot of Manchus I saw don't have that characteristic so yeah-I wonder how do they generally look like in the past.

[sarmat]

I don't know if we even can talk about "Pure Modern Manchu" cause they all are mixed with Chinese and Manchu language is almost extinct.

Not sure whether they had a really distinct look Qing paintings of Manchu emperors and statesmen do not reveal any particular distinctive features, they look like Northern Chinese.

[mew]

Yeah, I guess so. Sigh...And here I was, trying to find a real Jurchen nowadays.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I have the Ming period 17th century Chinese drawing of a Jürchen (before they were renamed as Manchu) in my disk, but the ImageShack site doesn't open now so I can't post it

[mew]

Aww... what a pity H. Ihsan Erkoc. I do hope we could all see it after the site works again

What's your opinion or stereotyping of Jurchen features? Do you think they have sharper features than the average Chinese, or do you think they look very mongoloid? Thanks!

[ceonni]

The founders of the Qing, the southern Jurchens, are rather long-oval faced. I had a tall classmate who looked very much like the actor Chen Daoming (who is Zhejiangnese, but often plays Qing emperors from Puyi to Kangxi).

One day I asked the classmate: "Are you Manchu?" And he got very upset and answered in his northern accented Cantonese: "No, I am Han, and my Grandpa was from Xi'an."

And I asked him again. He said: "Well, my Grandma is Manchu, OK?" And gave me a tough headlock to show his disproval.

The Qing Manchus are quite tall compared to their Mongolian cousins. The lineages that mixes Mongol and Han blood are quite handsome. These include Zaifeng, Prince Chun (whose mother was Han) and Kangxi (whose mother was a Borjikin).

Yixin, Prince Gong (whose mother was a Borjikin) looks too small-eyed, though.

The later "puppet emperors" Tongzhi and Puyi, and their fathers, grandfathers Daoguang and Xianfeng have been perceived in Chinese history as overly effeminate. I believe this to be a tendency of Jurchen imperial lineages, both Jin and Qing.

Guangxu emperor, who are of predominantly Manchu father and mother, was an effeminate, slender, but handsome man.

Following is a picture of the late Qing "Reactionary Party". All of them were graduates of Japanese military schools. This group photo are mainly members of the higher aristocracy. They were known to be flops:

The stalwart of the Reactionary Party, Liangbi, in my opinion the only man with vision and tactic to face the Beiyang usurpers, was of a rather humble Aisingioro branch: He was also the most tragic member of the Party, having been assassinated by Sun Yat-Sen's bomber.


These Manchu aristocrats were sent, along with Han Chinese students, to Japan to study military sciences after the defeat of Qing by Meiji Japan. The Japanese noticed the remarkable difference between the more cliquie and aloof aristocrats and the more radical, grassroot temperament of the Han students. The two groups would have quite different artistic tastes and did not congregate with each other. Through this observation, the Japanese first formulated their design for a "Manchukuo" that would feed into the mutual exclusiveness of the two nationalities of China. The Manchu students would mostly become sympathizers of Japan's imperialistic design for Asia, whereas the Han students became early Kuomintang republican revolutionaries.

[snafu]

Is this the pic you meant? The painting of Akuta?

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Uhm no, it shows an ordinary Jürchen tribesman with his archery set. I can send it to the people via e-mails though

[mew]

Thank you guys!

ceonni, wow! That's a very good picture you have! LOL. I can see why you said that Jurchens are effeminate men. When I look at the old pictures of Manchurian during WW2 or earlier and compared Manchus with Koreans and Japan, Manchus looks really Chinese compared to those two countries, and um....their facial characteristic don't really look "similar" Manchus seems more "yellow" tinted skin in a way. (Am I making sense? lol)

@h.Ihsan Erkoc, thank you! I would love to get the picture if you can send it to me! *HUGS* I wish the discussion on Jurchens won't stop here, God knows how few Jurchens articles there are here.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Ok mew, check your e-mail

[ceonni]

www.ming-yiguan.com/viewthread.php?tid=939&highlight=
Series of Qianlong Period Manchu Batur Portraits

[hjernespiser]

Ceonni,

That link gives me a login screen.

[ceonni]

Here is the Chinese translations you need in order to Register:

用户名： User name
密码 : password
安全提问 : security question (just select the first one 母亲的名字 mother's name)
回答: answer (just put in a fake answer you can remember)


登陆： log in

-----
before you can log in, of course you need to register.
You should notice the blue hyperlink that says: 入籍注册（中文用户名） Register (Only Chinese Character names allowed)

Since only Chinese character names are allowed, and you don't have Chinese IME to input Chinese names, here is my url with a list of Chinese common names:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6kt%C3%BCrk_Ka%C4%9Fans
Gokturk Khans' names in Chinese

For example:
Tumen Khan, Bumen, Yili-Kağan, 土門, Il-Khağan, 伊利可汗
Keluo Qara Issyk-Kağan 科羅
Khushu Muqan-Kağan 木杆

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Emperors_of_the_Yuan_Dynasty
This list is even better


Now Register:

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注册超大 Hotmail 邮箱 (Register supersized hotmail inbox---- please ignore this. It's just optional)

验证: Security answer (it's always a mathematical equation like 4+425=, and you are supposed to answer in numerical value "429)


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提交: submit


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===

Knowing this basic Chinese, here are some forums you can register:

* Ming Yiguan Historical Costumes throughout Dynasties Forum www.ming-yiguan.com/

* Chinese expats in Turkey, Tuerqi Forum: www.tuerqi.info/bbs/

* Salar Language Revival Kurumu Forum: salars.cn/bbs/index.php www.salars.cn/bbs/

* Professor Ilham Tohti's Uyghur Politics Forum: www.uighurbiz.net/bbs/

* Manchu Forum manchusky.qq.topzj.com/index.php

* Liberal Democratic China Forum zyzg.us/

* Hui Muslim Forum www.huizucn.com/bbs/

* Beijing University: Languages, History forum www.pkucn.com/