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Post by jakab on Jul 31, 2009 10:24:30 GMT 3
I accept that Hungary is/was a mixture; not just Magyars, and I certainly except that 'Attila's Huns' were not all Huns, that they were also a mixture (because the Huns confederated many other nomadic tribes in their quest against the Romans), but there were also just Huns, i.e - not a mixture. But, the mainstay to my original post, whether or not people believe that some Hungarians are ethnic Hun, is or was; do people believe/accept that the origins of the Huns that went into Europe are of Mongolic-type stock, again, pertaining to the Han dynasty in the late 3rd and early 2nd centuries BC, or perhapps (by this time) more Caucasian in origin? By the way, I found this that seems to say that the Magyars and Huns are intrinsically related (sorry about this), although I have always known about the legend (and I admit, it is only a legend, but that's history the world over) of Magor and Hunor... www.economicexpert.com/2a/Magyars.htm
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Post by sarmat on Jul 31, 2009 14:22:09 GMT 3
It is believed that the "unusual" (for its time) description of the Huns provided by medieval chronists like Jordannes or Marciannus including "small eyes," "short but broad-set stature," "lack of facial hair" indicates Mongoloid outlook of Huns.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jul 31, 2009 17:31:17 GMT 3
It is believed that the "unusual" (for its time) description of the Huns provided by medieval chronists like Jordannes or Marciannus including "small eyes," "short but broad-set stature," "lack of facial hair" indicates Mongoloid outlook of Huns. And the Chinese description of the Xiongnu (i.e., full beards) indicates a Western look. *shrug* I should really track down a copy of Pal Liptak's book, but the implication in suggesting that there was an increase in Europo-Mongoloids during the Avar period is that the prior population contained little Mongoloids. Jakab, you should try to dig through this forum a little. There's the old threads that contain details of the existing data and conclusions based upon them.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jul 31, 2009 17:32:44 GMT 3
Jakab,
Also check out Andras Rona-Tas "Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages".
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Post by hjernespiser on Jul 31, 2009 17:38:52 GMT 3
The legends floating around on the Internet are modern interpretations and attempts to "settle" variations from the medieval sources in order to have a complete story. Notice that on the one hand the Magyars apparently descend from Ham and another version says Japheth (Sons of Magog). I have yet to see a website dealing with the Hungarian legends talk seriously about the variations.
The only reason Nimrod got thrown in by medieval writers was because they needed an explanation for who Menrot was. No one today still is sure who Menrot was, an Avar or Magyar or Bulgar or Romanian or Slav?
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Post by hjernespiser on Jul 31, 2009 17:55:01 GMT 3
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Post by jakab on Aug 3, 2009 10:08:17 GMT 3
Many thanks to everyone - and sorry for late reply, only I've been scouring the Web, because this is getting very interesting Yes, it seems there is a difference between the descriptions of Jordannes or Marciannus and that of the Chinese... The map/chart below is derived from historical maps and other info on the Web. Almost invariably, there are numerous pages, etc, indicating a Xiongnu/Xiongnu-Hun connection with the Han Dynasty, and of course, the later expansion of Hunnic peoples (the Huns if you like) into Europe. However, I could not find anything definitive that links (if this is the right way of putting it) the two 'areas of conflict/influence' in a geographical sense (what else..) - hence the 'blue oval/circle' that I've called the MISSING LINK. This is probably why some scholars/historians over the ages, argue against a direct 'ethnic link' between the Huns in Europe and those Hunnic-peoples of Eastern and Central Asia many centuries before, but instead believe in a more Caucasian (i.e the Caucasus regions) origin by this time. So, by the time they came into Europe, they may have had both Mongol-like and Caucasian features, after all, The Huns were a confederation of different nomadic tribes. Note: 2nd.c BCE is the beginning of the further Hunnic expansion, not the end of it (the 'black oval' is slightly misleading here - sorry )
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