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Post by boztorgaikhan on Apr 13, 2011 20:07:47 GMT 3
in eastern of the Kokturks were the Mongols too under eastern khanate of the Kokturks rule, and bodyguards of the kul-tigin khagan was those mongols. Turks and Mongols were mostly time in same khaganate: xiong-nu, gokturks, avars, kimaks, etc...
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Post by hscsuccess on Aug 13, 2011 14:18:50 GMT 3
A-shi-na 阿史那 is the name written in Chinese sources; Asena was an outdated French rendering of that Chinese version. Because early Turkish Central Asian historians relied on translations from French, they got this form and it stayed in Turkish historiography. This name does not exist in any of the Old Turkic texts as far as I know. One of my Turkish friend told me Asena is a female name in Turkey, meaning "female wolf" and I think this matches with the "Grey Wolf Legend" in Tang book(the history record of Tang Dynasty).
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Post by hscsuccess on Aug 13, 2011 15:42:58 GMT 3
Orkhon Turkic was closest to todays Yugur (Yellow Uyghur) and southern Siberian Turkic. Bilgekagan, that is not possible, the Qarluqs were different from the Gokturks, but the Chinese sources associated the Qarluqs with the Gokturks. Maybe the Qarluqs were a break-off from the Gokturks. But the Ashinas were surely not Qarluqs, there are no evidences for that. Yugur are yellow-headed Uyghur from 10th century. Today they are living in Qinghai Province. Their culture and dressing now is almost the same as Tibetan. They are a division of Uyghur. Uyghur is a tribe of Tiele. Tiele was under the ruling of Gokturks. Ashina is the family name of Eastern Gokturks' ruler. Therefore, the relationship between Yugur and Ashina family is like the ruled and the ruler. Apparently, Yugur are not form Ashina family. Chinese history book clearly stated that Qarluqs are a division of Western Gokturks. In Chinese history book Gokturk is called "Tujue". Notice that although there are "Eastern Tujue" and "Western Tujue", the Chinese history book stated that strictly speaking, only Ashina family "Eastern Tujue" are real Tujue. So it's like now you guys use the term "Turkic". Because there were too many Turkic tribes, the Chinese call all of them "Tujue" and only distinguish "Eastern Tujue" and "Western Tujue". "Western Tujue" was just to give them a name meaning they are Turkic and they are in the west. Therefore, Qarluqs, strictly speaking are not even Gokturks. They have nothing to do with Ashina family.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 14, 2011 14:26:36 GMT 3
Welcome aboard hscsuccess.
Today in Turkey, Asena is used as a female name. It's also the name given to the female leaders of nationalist groups. And modern Turks think Asena means "female wolf", but in reality we don't know what it really means. It is certain that the Chinese sources did not record the name A-shi-na with that meaning. In fact, according to the legend recorded in the Chinese sources, A-shi-na was one of the ten children of the she-wolf, that became the leading tribe of the Gokturks (Tujue). And yes, that wolf origin myth is quite popular in Turkey, hence the useage of Asena as a name.
Indeed, but language-wise, Yugur and some of the Siberian dialects have remained the closest to the Old Turkic language. This is what linguists like Annemarie von Gabain said.
After the establishment of the Gokturk Qaghanate in 552, the subjects of that empire all became called with the name Türük or Türk. This was originally the name of the ethnic group that established the empire, but as can be seen among other steppe empires like the Huns or Mongols, the establisher ethnic name quickly became a political name used for all the subjects of the empire. That is why some other peoples outside the original Türük (Gokturk) tribes, such as the Toquz Oghuz (including the Uyghurs), Qarluqs or the On Oq were also called with that name in both Chinese and Gokturk sources. The thing we don't know is how exactly the Qarluq ethnicity appeared. Chinese sources say they were a branch of the Gokturks, but we don't know if this has an ethnic or political meaning. But we know that their rulers were not from the A-shi-na.
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Post by hscsuccess on Aug 14, 2011 16:13:28 GMT 3
hehe, thanks, I have learnt a lot from from your reply. My friend, he is from Antalya. Last year, he went back to Turkey, but we are still in touch. He told me "Asena" is used as a female name and there is a famous female singer whose name is "Asena". so I thought wow this matches with our history record, "Grey Wolf Legend".
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Post by hscsuccess on Aug 14, 2011 20:20:39 GMT 3
I think the "Old Turkic language" refer to Dingling (丁零) people.
Dingling were an ancient Siberian people. They originally lived on the bank of the Lena River in the area west of Lake Baikal, gradually moving southward to Mongolia and northern China. They were subsequently part of the Xiongnu(Huns) Empire.
Around the 3rd century they were assimilated into the Tiele (鐵勒, Die Lei), also named Gaoche (高車, Go Ke) or Chile (敕勒, Chul Luk)),who gradually expanded westward into Central Asia.
The Chinese history book believes that Dingling(around 300 BC - 300)and Tiele(around 300 - 546) are the same. Both names were translated from Old Turkic language "Trk". "Tiele" was the Turkic way to pronounce it. Dingling was the Xianbei-Mongolian way to pronounce it.
Tang Book claim that Tiele ruled by Tujue had same culture and language as Tujue(Ashina family).
Tiele consists 9 tribes and the most powerful one was Uygur. Later on, Uygur established an empire after Tujue defeated by Tang. The previous 9 tribes all intergrated into the Uygur Empire.
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Post by hscsuccess on Aug 14, 2011 21:29:07 GMT 3
Toquz Oghuz= 9 tribes Tiele. Turkic word "Oghuz" means united. When Tiele was ruled by Gokturks, they established an alliance to fight against Gokturks(Ashina).
The Western Gokturk is known as the Onoq, or "ten arrows". It consists ten tribes and one of them is Qarluq.
Qarluq used to be Tang's alliance. They used to be Tang's representative in Central Asia. They used to fight under Tang's title. However, In the Battle of Talas, The Karluks(Karluks=Qarluqs=Qarluks=Karluqs)forces, which composed two thirds of the Tang army, deserted the Chinese coalition and changed to the Muslim side while the battle was ongoing. With the Karluk troops attacking the Tang army from the rear and the Arab attacking from the front, the Tang troops were unable to hold their positions......
A very popular opinion is that Kara-Khanid Khanate(840-1212) was established by Qarluq. The territory of Kara-Khanid Khanate is the same as the earlier Qarluq and also Kara-Khanid Khanate was called 黑汗 in Chinese, meaning black Khan. Vasily Bartold mentions that Qarluqs people like black.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
Posts: 96
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 15, 2011 4:43:12 GMT 3
But who are the Dingling exactly? From what I've read in the book of Gumiliev they are people who were fishers. Then they should be Yeniseians? Turkic sources say they are Turkic but European sources do not confirm this? The Chinese sources tell us indeed that they are the same, but they WERE not the same. Dingling are assimilated into the Tiele people but the ultimate origin of the Dingling is still not clear.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2012 3:39:53 GMT 3
Hi Bilge kagan according to researchs of H.Bayliyev that was graduatet from Türkmen Devlet univ. The percentage of similarity between first 224 word of orkhon inscription and today Türkic dialects was : Türkmen 89%, Azeri 71%, Kazak 65%, özbek 68%, Tatarca 66%, Çuvash 27%, Yakut 33%, Kiriz71%, Uygur 76%, Nogay 76%, Tuva 43%, Tukish(anatolian) 65% , source : the article of Mustafa Sepetçi Oglu ve Sonsuza Uyanan Taslar,p7, by Doc. Erhan Aydin,turkey. That's probably not right. Can't compare to Tuvan very well because a large part of the vocabulary is from Mongolian, but other Siberian Turkic languages like what are spoken in Altai that are grammatically close to Tuvan don't have the Mongolian influence and I'd bet that they are much closer to Orkhun Turkish. Besides, straight vocabulary comparisons can be rather useless. Other grammatical features of Orkhun Turkish are closer to Siberian Turkic languages than to, say, Turkmen. Well. ;D There are Orkhun inscription written on Azerbaijani manat, and you can actually compare it to Azerbaijani Turkish. ("Özümin" and "Özüm" written on Orkhun inscript but not translated that way into Azeri Turkish are actually used in Azeri Turkish, which means "mine" and "myself".)
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