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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 23, 2010 12:41:57 GMT 3
My opinion is, the core of the Gokturk ruling class was Turkic but maybe had some Indo-European mixture and clearly had cultural contacts with them. And only two of the Gokturk rulers are recorded as having colored eyes, the rest were not recorded. I think you're going to strict conclusions with rather very few points. There is no evidence to proove that the Huns spoke an R-Turkic dialect, especially the Huns in Asia. On the contrary, the linguistic remains we have of Asian Huns show us that their dialect was the same with the Gokturks. Having close cultural and commercial contacts doesn't mean they were relatives ethnic-wise. Besides, it's wrong to call the Uyghur Empire "half-Turkic, half-Tatic", because the Soghdians formed only a small minority among the Uyghurs and even among the Gokturks. You can't even call the Gokturks "half-Tatic". "5% Tatic" maybe The Turks had their own festivals apart from Navrūz just like the Chinese, Greco-Romans and Iranians all had their own ones, and the Turks started using the name "Nevruz" only after they came to the Middle East. We have no evidence to suggest that the Turks used the name "Nevruz" during the Gokturk area.
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Post by ceonni on Jan 23, 2010 21:18:29 GMT 3
Yes I concede that I overstated the Iranic elements (or at least, sedentary Tatic elements) in the Gokturk and Uyghur populations.
Correcting my point: Early Asian Huns had NOMADIC Saka ordus joining their ulus. However the Gansu Zahu were probably mainly Saka ordus who were considered Zahu or "side branches of the Hunnic ulus" (Xiongnu Biezhong).
But when the Gansu Zahu were in Turpan, perhaps following the multitudes of the Juqu Kings of Liang, or arriving at Turpan separately with the Juqu Kings, the Zahus were probably heavily mixed with the Dingling (Tiele), who were perhaps originally Ketic in language and Uralic or Mongoloid in race.
The Zahus' expulsion by the Tabgach Wei from Turpan to Otuken made it more plausible that they mixed with a Ketic (or close to the proto-Kyrgyz, Dingling, Oyrat, Buryats) indigenous group native to the Otuken.
However, the Rouran-period Otuken Turk's language being Old Turkish is a rather established fact.
As a result of this cultural contact, the nomadic culture of the Otuken Turks being close to the nomadic culture of the Huns and the Sakas is not surprising, and that they picked up a little bit of connections with sedentary Tats is not surprising. But you are right, "half-Tatic" would be an overstatement on sedentary Iranic or Tocharian elements.
And yes, Yeni Gun was adopted. But it was certainly adopted due to the later Turks' early-established cultural ties to Iranic civilizations and myths, much in the same way the Koreans and Japanese adopted the Chinese characters because of early-established trade and tribe myth ties, in a way that the Philippinos and Malays weren't able to.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 24, 2010 2:12:19 GMT 3
Uhm, I'm not sure if we have enough evidence to make suggestions about the ethnicity of "Za Hu" in Gansu, because that region was already very mixed.
I also haven't seen any evidences to say that the Dingling-Gaoche-Tiele were Ketic speakers.
Indeed.
Yes, but the Turks adopted Iranian "New Day" at a rather later time. Chinese sources clearly state that the Turks had their own festivals "in the fifth month" every year, which was very probably different from Iranian Navruz, and I think this Turkic festival is the same thing with what the modern Turks celebrate as "Hıdırellez" in late spring-early summer.
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Post by ceonni on Jan 24, 2010 9:50:08 GMT 3
Chinese sources clearly state that the Turks had their own festivals "in the fifth month" every year, which was very probably different from Iranian Navruz, and I think this Turkic festival is the same thing with what the modern Turks celebrate as "Hıdırellez" in late spring-early summer. Ederlezi is a bit too early for the Chinese fifth month (the Zodiac animal of Wu 午 Hourse or the Kinciman stellar month of Ding 定 "Stabilization"). However, it seems to coincide with the Tatar festival of Sabantuy, or Summer Solstice. It is very likely that the Hunnish festival of Ciyin (in Tatarca, another name for Sabantuy) which has a Oghuz version of "Yigin", falls on this Summer Solstice day. Besides, the Anatolian festival of Hıdırellez has a strong Anatolian flavor to it. One much look at the observance of it among the Yoruk and Qaraqum Turkmens on the one hand, and communities more indigenous to Anatolia and the Cingen on the other, in order to determine its origin. It commemorates two Old Testament Hebrew prophets. In June 22 2009, Salar students of Xi'an celebrated Yigin with a picnic. Not as festive as a Kazan Sabantuy gathering, but the tradition is re-established. "Yigin" has the same meaning as the Uygurca "Meshrep" or Arabic "Meclis" (being together). The Salars have accepted the idea that Novruz, Yigin, Meshrep and Yalda are holy for the ancients.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 24, 2010 14:46:45 GMT 3
Indeed, it has a Middle Eastern-Semitic flavour as well as name for it, but the origins must be dating back to Pre-Islamic Turkic traditions of the Solstice Day.
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Post by bilgekagan on Nov 13, 2010 1:41:16 GMT 3
Although they refer themselves as "Turks" and repeatedly mention "waging war against the Oghuz", there is a funny claim among nationalist people that "Gokturks were Oghuz". Yeah that's funny but also made me think about "Do we have an idea about which branch do Ashına Dynasty belong to?" and I realized that I don't even have a clue about that.
Well, do you?
Edit: BTW, I gotta say "hello everyone!" since I'm a newbie. I've "re-found" this forum thanks to the days that I used to write at turktarihi.net and allempires.com with nickname "Bilge_Kagan".
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 15, 2010 19:24:48 GMT 3
Hi bilgekagan, welcome aboard Yes, this is a major issue among Turkish Central Asian historians. Nearly a century ago, Barthold claimed that the "Türük Oghuz" mentioned several times in the Orkhon Monuments were the ancestors of the Oghuz, and that the Gokturks and the Oghuz were the same, or more correctly, the Oghuz tribesmen formed the bulk of the Gokturk people. Of course apart from the name he had no evidences, but Turkish historians liked that view quite a lot and even today, they stick to that. On the contrary, as I explained here in this forum is some other threads, the name "Oghuz" was used for several different peoples in history and there is indeed no solid evidence to suggest that the Sayhun Oghuz (ancestors of the Oghuz-Turkmens of Turkey, Balkans, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, etc) were the direct descendents of the Gokturks. Plus, in Tanghuiyao, we have a list of Gokturk tribes and none of them match with those of the Sayhun Oghuz. The Gokturks themselves, with their originally ten and later twelve tribes, were a different people from those Oghuz. I explained these stuff in detail in some of the other threads here, but I don't remember where exactly
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Post by ceyhun82 on Nov 23, 2010 19:21:54 GMT 3
Hi Ihsan im Ceyhun garaca a Türkmen from north east of Iran i read & translate your article about Kültegin's military life to persian. It was a good work. I know a great scholar from Turkey .his name is Ahmet Tasagil. Im trying to translate his book "Göktürkler I-IÌ-ÎII" to persian. I am glad to meet you.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 25, 2010 16:49:14 GMT 3
Hi Ceyhun, welcome aboard That's great, thanx a lot Yes I know Professor Taşağıl, he is currently at the Mimar Sinan University in Istanbul and I met him in person Good luck with your translations.
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Post by ceyhun82 on Nov 27, 2010 16:30:38 GMT 3
ihsan, ceyhun_karaca82 is my yahoo Id . I will happy for recieve ur messages.i want to send translated article for you? Do you know persian?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 30, 2010 4:06:32 GMT 3
Unfortunately I don't know Persian, but I would like to see them.
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Post by bilgekagan on Dec 4, 2010 23:45:06 GMT 3
Then, does anyone see a possibility of Ashinas being Qarluks? Among Ozbek nationalists, such an opinion emerged lately, they also claim "The language in the Orkhun Monuments is most similar to Ozbek language, among all Turkic languages".
I don't know about languages but I see a possibility with my limited knowledge. Since Kok Turks refer themselves as "Turks" against the Oghuz, just like Babur calls his nation as "Turks" against Ozbeks of Shaybak, in Baburname, these two may be the same people what do you think?
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Post by ceyhun82 on Dec 6, 2010 13:35:58 GMT 3
Hi Bilge kagan according to researchs of H.Bayliyev that was graduatet from Türkmen Devlet univ. The percentage of similarity between first 224 word of orkhon inscription and today Türkic dialects was : Türkmen 89%, Azeri 71%, Kazak 65%, özbek 68%, Tatarca 66%, Çuvash 27%, Yakut 33%, Kiriz71%, Uygur 76%, Nogay 76%, Tuva 43%, Tukish(anatolian) 65% , source : the article of Mustafa Sepetçi Oglu ve Sonsuza Uyanan Taslar,p7, by Doc. Erhan Aydin,turkey.
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Post by ceyhun82 on Dec 6, 2010 13:48:04 GMT 3
Unfortunately I don't know Persian, but I would like to see them. ok Attachments:
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 7, 2010 10:32:51 GMT 3
Hi Bilge kagan according to researchs of H.Bayliyev that was graduatet from Türkmen Devlet univ. The percentage of similarity between first 224 word of orkhon inscription and today Türkic dialects was : Türkmen 89%, Azeri 71%, Kazak 65%, özbek 68%, Tatarca 66%, Çuvash 27%, Yakut 33%, Kiriz71%, Uygur 76%, Nogay 76%, Tuva 43%, Tukish(anatolian) 65% , source : the article of Mustafa Sepetçi Oglu ve Sonsuza Uyanan Taslar,p7, by Doc. Erhan Aydin,turkey. That's probably not right. Can't compare to Tuvan very well because a large part of the vocabulary is from Mongolian, but other Siberian Turkic languages like what are spoken in Altai that are grammatically close to Tuvan don't have the Mongolian influence and I'd bet that they are much closer to Orkhun Turkish. Besides, straight vocabulary comparisons can be rather useless. Other grammatical features of Orkhun Turkish are closer to Siberian Turkic languages than to, say, Turkmen.
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