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Post by sarmat on Jan 31, 2009 8:22:35 GMT 3
The great empire of Ermanaric was apparently very influenced by the steppe, particularly in the warfare, as the Russian historian Vernadsky wrote, "Goths wouldn't survive in the steppe if they didn't become steppe warriors themselves." I'd like to discuss this in this thread. Will post some additional interesting info later. Please join everybody!  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 1, 2009 21:21:07 GMT 3
I would like to know more about the matter The only thing I know is that unlike their Visigothic brothers, the Ostrogoths became horseback riding warriors after moving to the Pontic Steppe. Yet, they could know stand before the Huns of Balamir. |
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Post by hjernespiser on Feb 1, 2009 22:39:44 GMT 3
I read somewhere regarding how it is possible that some of the remains classified as Ostrogothic found in Hungary could have really been Hun.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 1, 2009 23:41:15 GMT 3
Would be delighted to see additional info |
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Post by Temüjin on Feb 3, 2009 22:41:35 GMT 3
The great empire of Ermanaric was apparently very influenced by the steppe, particularly in the warfare, as the Russian historian Vernadsky wrote, "Goths wouldn't survive in the steppe if they didn't become steppe warriors themselves." I'd like to discuss this in this thread. Will post some additional interesting info later. Please join everybody! yeah that's a very good question i already wondered that myself. also think about the aspects of economy. |
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Post by Temüjin on Feb 3, 2009 22:44:32 GMT 3
I read somewhere regarding how it is possible that some of the remains classified as Ostrogothic found in Hungary could have really been Hun. sure, i was always a bit sceptical at what gets classified as "Germanic" artephacts even though they have extreme Steppe appearance like draco standards, spangenhelme and lamellar armour. there was some idiotic TV documentary series a while back called "History of Germans" and i found it ridiculous how Otto I wears lamellar armour while the Magyars don't even wear armour at all....  |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 3, 2009 23:20:26 GMT 3
LOL now that's funny ;D ;D But maybe it's because of the general prejudice in the World regarding that steppe nomads were just unarmored light horsemen. Even most of the people in Turkey think this way. Whenever I tell people that armor was used very commonly in the steppes, even the historians or history students get amazed most of the time ;D
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Post by sarmat on Feb 3, 2009 23:27:58 GMT 3
Vernadsky writes that Ostgothic art and artisanship was very similar to Sarmatian. Ostgothic cavalry was organized and armed similar to the Sarmatian cavalry except that Ostgoths didn't use long Sarmatian spears.
Since under the influence of the Steppe the cavarly became the elite part of the Ostgothic army it later influenced the whole social structure of Ostgoths. Ostgothic cavalrymen usually were nobles, while most of the infantry consisted on the common folk.
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Post by sarmat on Feb 3, 2009 23:29:14 GMT 3
LOL now that's funny ;D ;D But maybe it's because of the general prejudice in the World regarding that steppe nomads were just unarmored light horsemen. Even most of the people in Turkey think this way. Whenever I tell people that armor was used very commonly in the steppes, even the historians or history students get amazed most of the time ;D Yeah, the most funny thing is that the whole idea of the European heavily armed knight comes from the steppe. ;D |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 3, 2009 23:32:03 GMT 3
That's why I love studying History ;D ;D
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Post by sarmat on Feb 3, 2009 23:38:52 GMT 3
yeah that's a very good question i already wondered that myself. also think about the aspects of economy. In this regard, I would assume that Osgothic socio-econimic situation was similar to the Cossack one. I mean very strong steppan influence in culture and warfare, but at the same time, retention of the agricultural economy. |
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Post by Temüjin on Feb 4, 2009 1:19:59 GMT 3
Since under the influence of the Steppe the cavarly became the elite part of the Ostgothic army it later influenced the whole social structure of Ostgoths. Ostgothic cavalrymen usually were nobles, while most of the infantry consisted on the common folk. the long lance (kontos) was a signature weapon of the Sarmatians, on the other hand, does that mean that the Goths also had horse archers? but i disagree with the idea that only noblemen rode horses, at least in the Sarmatian Army. |
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Post by Temüjin on Feb 4, 2009 1:28:51 GMT 3
Yeah, the most funny thing is that the whole idea of the European heavily armed knight comes from the steppe. ;D well...this is often claimed but i have to say there is no connection from what i observed. knights appeared only after the significant Steppe invasions (Huns, Avars) but in fact Steppe people and europeans had long before contact and there is no evidence or reason why just know they adopted cavalry warfare just then. another argument is the use of tamgas as inspiration for knightly heraldry. however medieval heraldry is different from tamgas and horses were seldom brandished even though it was possible to do it. more obviously is the difference in fighting style. the medieval knight developed out of the mounted infantry of the Frankish Empire which needed mobile troops to quickly react on Viking and Avar/Magyar raids. the european knightly style of warfare is essentially a phalanx charge on horseback, while the charge itself is not the most significant element of Steppe warfare. also like i already mentioned above, in Steppe societies there was no clear difference bewteen moutned warriors who were both nobles and peasants but in europe a horse meant status. then, early knights were not heavily armoured like in the late middle ages and Byzantine Cataphracts, which we do know were inspired by Steppe people, are significantly different from knights appearance and organization & usage. |
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Post by sarmat on Feb 4, 2009 1:45:25 GMT 3
the long lance (kontos) was a signature weapon of the Sarmatians, on the other hand, does that mean that the Goths also had horse archers? but i disagree with the idea that only noblemen rode horses, at least in the Sarmatian Army. No, I didn't meant that only the nomblemen rode the horses among Goths, but mostly they were nobleman. The thing is that the Ostgoths continued to use infantry and the infantrymen were mainly commoners. I believe, however, that Sarmatians army on the other hand consisted almost complitey of cavalry. And, yes, seems that Ostgoths had horse archers. |
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Feb 4, 2009 3:33:41 GMT 3
The same pattern of caste of nobility who form professional squadrons of cavalries was quite common amongst the Sassanids who eventually took their part to influence on cavalry of Byzantines alongside other steppe people of the time. This matter especially encircles the late Sassanid era, in which the unique type of cavalry or early form of knighthood "Asawar" caste become renown and eversince there are respected views of them (later in Persian 'Sawar') especially in literary works and historical texts. This early form of knighthood was discontinued slightly after 7th century as most of its members played significant roles in pocket resistances against the Arab armies.
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