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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 30, 2010 12:16:51 GMT 3
Your perception of history is wrong, dear Asparuh. I don't like the Ottoman Empire either, but it is pointless to blame all Turks for what that empire did. Besides, please don't forget that all empires are evil. You also don't know how horrible things the Ottomans and other Turkish dynasties in Anatolia such as the Qaramanids and Aqqoyunlus did to the ordinary Turkish folk during their wars with each other, or during the rebellions. Yes, Ottoman chronicles are full of massacres, lootings, burning of cities, enslavements, rapes, etc conducted by the Ottoman Empire on Balkan peoples, but the same chronicles tell us that the Ottomans and other Turkish dynasties were indifferent toward other Turks as well, in that concept.
By the way, there was no "Armenian Genocide", but there was a mass killing spree between the Turks and Armenians at that time. It was made by both sides.
I agree. Things happened in the past, but there is no need to continue a "blood vengence".
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Post by ALTAR on Jan 30, 2010 12:51:44 GMT 3
Listen, I don't want to offend the Forum,but tell me how can i erase from my mind all the suffering that the Bulgarian nation suffered from the Ottoman rule. Since the turks came in Bulgaria lots of people died. It's almost 500 years ( 1396-1878 ) of slavery. We were turned in slaves that had to work for the Turkish Sultan to provide him resources from our own lands. You're wrong, Most of them are your fascist parties propagandas. There was no historical record in the German, Albanian, Hungarian, Serbian, Croatian, Greek, Romanian & other foreign resources. Nearly all of them are said Balkans(also Bulgaria) were always the most wealthiest region part of Ottoman Empire. Ottomans made many investments and brought many improvements to the region. I dont mean that there wasn't massacres, wars other events like this. Off course, Bulgarians also suffered from crimes, wars, massacres but you have to look the whole history of the region in the above that I try to explain. You don't understand that the victims the turks had in Bulgaria in the time of our liberation are just a drop comparing to the countless Bulgarians which died in the 5 century Ottoman rule in Bulgaria,terorized,murdered,etc.And i don't even want to start speaking about the Jannisaries,which were babies robbed from Bulgarian christian families to become warriors of the Sultan You have to show your proves from the experts of Ottoman History, not the Ataka's propaganda office. I am also against Janissary System but Janissaries were mostly brought from Albania, Bosnia, Serbia & Croatia. It was written in the Ottoman Chronicles. However, its a disgusting crime that small kids who separated from their families & home. It's better to stop this now otherwise it would go worst. Bulgarian prime minister has just been in Turkey,so he said the things clear : We don't need political party to intermediate between Turkey and Bulgaria ( like existing DPS ) . If Turkey is claiming to enter Europe,you have to show a lot of respect to us Bulgarians .Because you own it to us.You also own us reparations for the Eastern Thrace lands.So if Turkey really wants to be a newcoming European member,you have to change your opinion for the Bulgars from now on.Because we don't own you nothing,You came in this area from Central Asia,so please play fair with your neibhours,because we have been in this Balkan peninsula more that you are. Your presidents claims are his own. We don't need his hystrerical ideas. Its better to focus on Bulgarias problems, not to giving advice to Turkey. Its not his duty. You count yourselves as an European Country although you have no substructure. Your citizens attacked Turkish people in the border who went voting. This case shows your fanatical, dark side of your country. You also mostly repeat this illogical behaviours & statements which are useless for you & your personality too. And if you think i am spoiling your forum,you can ban me ,i have no problem with that. But i will not close my eyes for the truth. I have rights to speak. And just trying to show you the truth. It's a nice forum,you can learn a lot of things here and everybody defends his nation and culture,so i defend mine. Nobody judge you to defend your nation, culture. However, you should do it without propagandas. No right to distort history and politics. What if tommorow muslims and gipsies make their own republic in Bulgaria like Kosovo in Serbia for example. I really don't want to see that happening. So ,these are the things i am speaking about. These are your political statements, conspiracy theories and hypothesis(also ATAKA too) not related with SHF & Turks. It seems an impossible option. Because Bulgaria is in NATO, Serbia wasn't. If you don't want to read it don't read it.But it's the truth. Would you be happy if your country is overrun by another race or people tell me brother ? This is what can happen in my country too if the politicans don't find the right solutions to make.And also a new open dialogue with Turkey is needed ,now more than ever. Because the world is globalizing and we all need to be better now. Leave the past behind. You should save yourself from this paranoia. "Turks Will Invade Bulgaria", "Turks Capture Bulgarina Lands". Why we take Bulgaria? What does have Bulgaria? Any energy resources, technological industry, Is it a rich country? No, full of gipsies, Jivkovs and Siderovs ;D. We have many economic, political problems in Turkey. And have no spare time to invade Balkans and suffer with their problematic small nations. We only take care about Turks of Balkan, they have to live in a democracy with other people of Balkans in peace, they want and have to right it like you too! Lastly, we have no problems with Bulgaria & Bulgarian People beside who had Siderov-ATAKA or Jivkov sentiment. In contrast, Many Bulgarians are nice people and have right to build their future in their country.
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Post by Subu'atai on Jan 30, 2010 14:41:22 GMT 3
As an American, I always have a difficult time understanding the grudges nations hold against each other for problems of the past. This is the now and present. What we do now is more important than what happened in the past. These events happened, yes, but they also happened before any of us here were born. None of us were there. In the case of the anti-Turkism made by past colonised European states in Greece and the Balkans during the Ottoman period, most of the modern hate now comes from anti-Turk propaganda from these respective countries I have noticed. It is the same thing why many non-Turkic (though yeah, still some Turkic) Muslims despise Mongol folk - as they are trained at a young age (primary school) that we are totally evil barbarians who sacked Baghdad and are enemies of Islam. One member of the Pan-Mongol site told me of his experiences as he lived and grew up in Iran. So in the end, most of the hate is over past enemies' "b-tt-hurtness", in other words, their inability (so it seems from the amount of hate) to sh-t properly because we bent them over in the past. Many nations wish their people to be proud of who they are, historical defeats don't allow for that you see. That's just my analysis. However, some of this hate is actually not due to national propaganda. For example Mongol/Chinese hatred. There is a political side to it, due to both illegal and legal Han immigration, PRC occupation of south Mongolia (Inner Mongolia). On that note, there's also the nationalist/racialist side - which is the most embarrassing factor for both countries, many mainland Hans are very nationalist and racist, and combined with their inability to sh-t properly with their newfound power granted to them through Hamnigan/Manju... They are now very offensive at struggling developing countries such as Mongolia let alone the rest of Central-Asia. All Uyghurs are now also 'terrorists' for being Muslim, China embraced 9/11 politically. And in Mongolia, there's are also racial supremists, who beat up legitimate Chinamen, and 'traitors' who get with Chinese girls (parents also find it hard to accept), and shave the heads of women who get with Chinese guys. But finally, there's also the cultural side - with immense differences between Mongol and Chinese cultures, from language to food to sport to attitudes about life, attitudes about nature (a BIG one), to philosophy even down to how one speaks or the tone of voice, and so on and so on. Personally I still don't get along with the majority. The Chinese I have met in Singapore (my wife's family) are very different compared to the rest. However, they seem to be downtrodden by mainland Chinese as well. They are considered 'traitors' 'deserters' etc, as they left the mainland historically.
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Post by sarmat on Jan 30, 2010 18:56:45 GMT 3
So if Turkey really wants to be a newcoming European member,you have to change your opinion for the Bulgars from now on.Because we don't own you nothing,You came in this area from Central Asia,so please play fair with your neibhours,because we have been in this Balkan peninsula more that you are. I like this statement. Isn't that your ancestors also who came from Central Asia ? And speaking of Turks, you're mistaken if you think that they just landed in Balkans from the sky one day. Turkish people are descendants of many ethnic groups also including many native Balkans and Anatolians. And now they have the right to live there as well as many other nations. But, if you ask my opinion. All of these are just complexes of small countries who like to blame their big neighbors in all of their failures. It's so easy to say, yeah, it's because of Turks, these evil savages we are now so undeveloped and backward. Otherwise, now we would be so cool, developed, advanced, rich and "European" it's only because of them. But believe me or not. This is not true at all. History isn't black and white, there is no an absolute 100% evil and absolute 100% good. Ottoman empire created many good things as well. And in a sense it helped your Bulgarian Orthodox culture to survive under the pressure of the advancing Western Europe that wanted to smash and wipe out your own indigenous Orthodox civilization. Also, I don't know how many Bulgarians actually were civil servants, statesmen and soldiers in that empire. Too many, so, in a sense that very Empire was created by the Bulgarians as well. And how Bulgaria was different from Ottoman empire? Just in a couple of decades after the liberation it engaged into aggressive wars against its neighbors. Of course, you would say. No, it were not us. We were just "victims" but than its them even aggressors attacked us wanted to took our native Bulgarian lands and we had to resist... Well, that bullnuts any Ottoman historian can create a similar justification behind all the Ottoman wars. How to distinguish who is wrong and who is right? There is now way ! Another thing that pisses me off about Bulgaria and other small wimp Balkan states is the attitude towards Russia. Russians soldiers came and fought with Ottomans for your independence, Russia got nothing from your "liberation" except sacrifising hundreds of thousands of lifes literally for nothing. In some 30 years you already fought together with your "greates enemy and oppressor" Ottoman Turkey against your Russian liberators in WWI. Nowdays you're inventing fantastic theories of how evil barbaric and Asiatic Russia wanted to occupy Bulgaria all the time because it was so cool and European and that's why you need to join NATO etc. to oppose the Russian barbarism. And please tell me who is just there? Who is historically correct? It's impossible to say. I, personally, do not see any difference in how your country historically treated your neighbors and even friends and how you're saying Ottomans treated you. My personal opinion, however, is that the Russian imperial politics of fighting with the Ottoman empire was a big mistake. It should have been a friend with this fantastic, culturally developed and tolerant state. I also believe that the wars between the two empires only weaken both of them and in the end nobody benefited from them except some small imperialistic wimpy Balkan states that wanted to promote their own aggressive policies and had no any historical gratitude towards their liberators what so ever. Also Western imperialists benefited from them as well, by taking advantage of the Ottoman empire and occupying their lands and dissiminating stupid myths about the barbarism or Ottoman and Russian empires with only one purpose which was again to control and exploit those Balkan lands for their own selfish purposes. And now you're repeating those myths like a parrot and feel so great of being a part of a bid "European family" while, in fact, your "European relatives" view you as a cheap labor force at best... This is just my very subjective view of this problem, but it illustrates that the best way to comment about the controversial historical topics is first and foremost to have in your mind this short verse from the Gospel: Luke 6:42 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?" Which means it's better not to comment on them at all, unless you're absolutely impartial
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 30, 2010 21:10:43 GMT 3
I fully agree with Sarmat's statements.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jan 31, 2010 3:14:27 GMT 3
In other words, we're all on the same (baseball) team but we have a nasty tendency to erect arbitrary walls between each other that are really fruitless.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jan 31, 2010 3:15:19 GMT 3
There's no shame in being full of pride of one's heritage. What matters is what we do with our inheritance.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 31, 2010 12:14:13 GMT 3
Indeed, that's so true.
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:14:32 GMT 3
Ok,I see there is a big reaction from what i have wrote about the Ottomans matter. Sometimes the words are like a sparkle who burn fire who turn against you. Anyway, I have read what you guys have written and i am more calm now. I want to tell you first,that most of you here are scholars or students studiyng steppe history. So i am just a normal guy working in Abroad away from his country. So my knowledge is not as big as yours. So whatever i say is from what i have learned in school,being told or from my researches in internet and other books. I will begin with Ihsan. I see you are not saying positive things about Ottoman Empire too. That's good,At least i am not the only one blaming it. Most of Empires are Evil,that's true too. Let's don't forget that Ottoman Empire streched on three continents.It was huge in it's time. Here is a map :
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:17:29 GMT 3
Ottoman Empire map Attachments:
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:23:43 GMT 3
And now the answer of your questions : First of Atabeg : I am speaking for the Slavic Bulgars mainly,because in 15 century when the Second Bulgarian Kingdom fell in Ottoman hands,the Bulgars were mayjourly slavified. The Volga Bulgars had other destiny.
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:32:08 GMT 3
To Altar now. Ummm.Ok I will stop doing Propaganda.Maybe i went too far it's true. And yeah i read articles about Ataka,that's right.But i am not their member yet. It's true what you are saying about pepole voting and get stopped on the border. But wait, These people coming from Turkey want to overrun us in our own homeland. Isn't that a shame.Turkey is enough big,why you want it bigger ? I think you are trying to put a shade on my sight here, I already now,that there are provinces on Bulgaria with steady turkish population,especially in South Rodophi area.And your trademen are building fabrics everywhere,bying lands,etc. I am just wandering what will be the result of all that ? Are we going to dissapear as Volga Bulgaria did and turn to a state called Bulgaristan ? I am really worried of these facts. Bulgaria is for Bulgarians and all people living in it has to accept a Bulgarian identity and way of life.I don't mind that your turkish people live in it.They stood there since the Ottoman dinasty. We can just get them off,like Zhivkov wanted to do in 1989.Now that's too dangerous ,because it will let to a major problems and racial and ethnic war on the Balkans. Someone said to me that : The Balkans are like a timing bomb waiting for someone to burn the sparkle.So we don't want another Kosovo or Serbian war,don't we ?
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:36:54 GMT 3
Also,don't forget that the Turkish DPS party is Illegal and all this voting coming from Turkey is illegal too.They already spoke for that on the TV.Turkey is what ? Almost 70 milions against 8 milions in Bulgaria from which only 7 milions are Bulgars,rest of it it's gipsy,turkish,armenian,jewish and even tatars we have.I am agree that we have to look for our own problems in the country.Finally we have a nice prime minister who is trying to solve all the problems in the country-Boiko Borisov. I think is better that i carry on with these Bulgarian matters in the Bulgars topic.
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:46:52 GMT 3
Altar,tou are asking why Turket wants Bulgaria ? Very simple : Because Turkish people still dreams about the greatness of Ottoman Empire and want to conquer Balkan lands again.It's not just political thing here.The thing is turkish people living in Bulgaria are arrogant,nasty and don't respect Bulgarian society,.they don't conform with our laws and norms.They think they are in their own home as they can do whatever they want. Very possesive people.Speaking turkish everywhere,don't bother to learn Bulgarian.Opening Kebap place all over Bulgaria and smoking their Nargile and stuff. You are constatntly trying to impose your Muslim Turkish culture over us ,because we are small. But i am hoping our new elected goverment will overstand this time.
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Post by Asparuh on Jan 31, 2010 16:59:30 GMT 3
Ok,To Sarmat now.
You are right about Bulgaria was involved in too many regional and then World War I And World War II. In the Balkan wars first we were on the winning side,then on the losing.It's like a ball coming and going from one field to another. Eventually we lost Macedonia.Northern Dobrudja and Eastern Thrace as well as the Eagean coast.Bulgaria lost dramatically big teritorries and all that was a result of all this Balkan and World Wars.We are happy to still have a piece of land.
But again like i said before ,this was due to decisions of unwise politicians and people brought from outside to govern us like FERNINAND I from the Saks - Coburg dinasty Which was from Austria. Also other people messed in the politics which didn't care about the nation,the only looked for their own benefits. To understand Bulgarian history more time is needed and i cannot just explain it with few posts,so if you want to carry on on this please come in Bulgars topic. Bye !
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