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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 19, 2011 21:19:18 GMT 3
True ;D
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Modu Tanhu
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Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 19, 2011 22:16:29 GMT 3
Well about Avitohol. To me it doesn't sound Turkic to be honest but it has to be Turkic What do you think about the name Avitohol?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 20, 2011 19:18:13 GMT 3
Why it has to be Turkic? It is known that the Huns used Germanic and Iranic names alongside with Turkic ones. But if it was indeed Avitohol, the Romans and Greeks would have been recorded the name in a way more similar to that, instead of Attila or Attilas.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 20, 2011 19:21:57 GMT 3
Yea, it is much more likely that the name Attila would have had to have undergone Bulgarian-style phonetic changes to end up with Avitohol. The questions to show if this was possible are, when was "Avitohol" recorded and what are the sound changes that should be evident in the rest of the language during the period of time between when "Attila" and "Avitohol" was recorded (i.e., other words would have undergone the same sound changes)?
Like, it was mentioned here before, but the Norse retained the name as Atli while the name became Etzel under Old High German sound changes.
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Modu Tanhu
Tarqan
Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 21, 2011 2:19:24 GMT 3
Well I've been misunderstood. I heard many names in Turkic I thought that weren't Turkic but actually were Turkic. And I really thought he had a Turkic name so I thought the same could apply to the name Avitohol. Don't worry I know that it's not a rule that you MUST have a Turkic name if you are Turkic. I really want to know his real name. It seems like Atilla passed the Ätyl river and that he could been named after it. Ätylly means 'someone from the river'. Dengizich is Atilla's child. The word Dengizich means "little sea" in old Turkic (*Däŋiziq, where *-ziq is the diminutive suffix. What if you add -ziq to Ata? Ataziq? "little father" Or if you add -ziq to Ätil? Ätylziq? "little river" Dunno it's just a guess.
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 21, 2011 3:40:45 GMT 3
Yea, it is much more likely that the name Attila would have had to have undergone Bulgarian-style phonetic changes to end up with Avitohol. The questions to show if this was possible are, when was "Avitohol" recorded and what are the sound changes that should be evident in the rest of the language during the period of time between when "Attila" and "Avitohol" was recorded (i.e., other words would have undergone the same sound changes)? Like, it was mentioned here before, but the Norse retained the name as Atli while the name became Etzel under Old High German sound changes. I doubt this. In most languages as far as I know the usual tendency is that names become shortened in time, not lengthened. The major problem is perhaps that actually the List of Bulgarian Kings is the only document where the name "Avitohol" is mentioned at all and we know nothing else about him save his clan (Dulo) and the date - 300 years before enthroning of Irnik (Attila's son) or 515 years before the crossing of Danube by Esperikh (Asparukh). The document itself was composed not earlier than 893/4 when Slavic language was officially adopted in Danube Bulgaria. However it was most probably a translation from an earlier source. The text seems a bit peculiar as if it was made literally by a person still not completely fluent in Slavic (at least that is my impression, but still I am not an expert in Old Church Slavonic): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominalia_of_the_Bulgarian_khansThe name "Avitohol" itself seems too long for one word and is probably a compound. " Avi" is Old Mongolian word for "father", while "ohol" resembles Old Turkic oghul - "son". Some have compared also "tohol" with "Tochar" (from Chinese rendering Tu-huo-lo) but this seems to me difficult to maintain. There was also a theory that "Avitohol" is just a distortion of the Old Testament name Ahitofel, but this sounds even more incredible. Indeed medieval historians have often invented some mythical ancestors, but their names were usually derived from ethnonyms or from folklor and then presented as sons either of Noah's grandsons or of the Trojan king Priam. Some secondary biblical character from king Solomon's time seems quite out of context here. Some twenty years ago the infamous Petar Dobrev launched the theory (still popular amongst Bulgarian nationalists) that "Avitohol" was allegedly Iranian and has meant "Son of the Hind". I am not sure about " avi" meaning "hind" (it is called ahu in Persian which is close enough), but tofl which he claims to be the source of "tohol" is in fact an Arabian loanword ( ṭefl < Ar. ṭiflun, "child") which haven't existed in Iranian languages before adopting of Islam. He relates this pseudo-etymology to a mentioning in a Byzantine source about some "Moesian or Bulgarian prince" nourished by a hind. Indeed the Byzantine authors often call Bulgarians "Moesians" because of the old name of their main land, but the legend this source refers to is in fact about the Mysian king Telephus from the Trojan epic and despite of the curious resemblance of the names he has nothing to do with Avitohol. One of my crazy ideas is that if we assume the hypotheses about relations with the Kushans and some obscure evidences of Buddhist influence in Volga Bulgaria (the "shaven heads" from the List could also point to the Buddhist monks in the Kushan Empire), then maybe "Avitohol" was Abita-qul or "Servant of Abita" (cf. Hephtalite Mihirakula - "Servent of Mihr /i.e. Mithra/") where Abita is the Uigur pronunciacion of the name of Amida Buddha (< Skt. Amitābha, "Immeasurable Light"). BTW I already wrote about another hypothetical Bulgar-Uigur linguistic parallel which is also a Buddhist Sanskrit loanword namely madar - "dragon" (< Skt. makara): steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=board23&thread=28&page=17#26642 The problem here is however that the Mahayanist cult of Amida Buddha is relatively late and I am not sure if it has existed as early as the Kushan era.
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Modu Tanhu
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 21, 2011 3:52:31 GMT 3
Hmmmm very interesting. Could it also be ATA (father) + IL (country) + AGHA (commandor) = ?ATAILAGHA? (commandor of the fatherland? ) and that it further derived into Atilla?
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 21, 2011 4:15:30 GMT 3
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Modu Tanhu
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Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 21, 2011 5:26:31 GMT 3
It would be logical thinking it was a title rather than a name, nearly all Turkic rules had a different name after they became ruler.
And indeed you've written some nice thoughts that sounds logical. About Asparukh: I never believed it could be Turkic. From what I know Aspa is horse in Iranian and Rukh is a Soghdian word for light. Some names from Iran: Rukhan (Roxanna) Rukhshen (Roxshan, 'light' in Soghdian), Rokhan, etc.
But about the name Atilla, I believe it has to be related to the river Ätyl. I really think these should be possible origins for the name Atilla: - Ätylli, meaning 'from the river' - Ätylagha, meaning 'chief of the river' - Ataziq, meaning 'little father' (his son's name is Dengiziq, meaning 'little sea'. Maybe the Goths translated it in their language as Attila which also means little father?) - Ätylziq as baby wich later changed to Ätylli when he grew up? - Atilla from Atailagh (Ata, father + Il, country + Agh, commander, chief) meaning Lord of the Fatherland?
I think this is a bit too far-fetched: HEPHTHALITES
(Arabic Hayṭāl, pl. Hayāṭela), a people who formed apparently the second wave of “Hunnish” tribal invaders to impinge on the Iranian and Indian worlds from the mid-fourth century CE.
It is said the White Huns were the western Xiongnu. The migrating part of the Hephthalites split up. The small tribe that split up was according to them Atilla and their Huns and this could also explain the 300 years of gap between them. The Hephthalites are still unknown but it is clear they had Iranian names and spoke an Iranian language and a Turkic language. Iranian name of of the Hephtalites is Hapthaliyan. This is of course the plural form of Hephtali, the name of a ruler of the White Hun empire. So we can assume Hepthal's name in old-Iranic could have been: Aphthali. Maybe it was spoken as Attali and thus explaining the name of Attila?
P.S. these are all MY thoughts and guesses!!!!
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 22, 2011 14:22:36 GMT 3
why you still ask questions that have already been answered? there's only two possibilities: 1. Attila is a genuinely Gothic name, 2. Attila is a combination of a Turkic word with the gothic suffix -ila, for example Ata + ila = Attila. not unrealistic considering the later title Mirza from Arab Amir and Persian -zade. the point is, Attila in this form DOES make sense. there's no reason to interprete something into things that ALREADY make sense... if you analyze Gothic language and find that explanation no 1 doesn't make sense, then explanation no 2 applies.
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Modu Tanhu
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Yağmur yağdı ıslanmadım, kar d?k?ld? uslanmadım.
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Post by Modu Tanhu on Sept 22, 2011 16:32:42 GMT 3
Because it is still not proven which one is true. I saw the other thread about his name there were other theories.
I didn't actually ask a question but I just explained my own thoughts about possible origins of his name.
If the questions are answered why don't you close this thread?
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Post by Ardavarz on Sept 26, 2011 1:01:58 GMT 3
why you still ask questions that have already been answered? there's only two possibilities: 1. Attila is a genuinely Gothic name, 2. Attila is a combination of a Turkic word with the gothic suffix -ila, for example Ata + ila = Attila. not unrealistic considering the later title Mirza from Arab Amir and Persian -zade. the point is, Attila in this form DOES make sense. there's no reason to interprete something into things that ALREADY make sense... if you analyze Gothic language and find that explanation no 1 doesn't make sense, then explanation no 2 applies. Things are much more complicated than a simple choice between two alternatives. There are many possibilities and not all of them are mutually exclusive (for instance "atta" means "father" both in Turkic and Gothic). And unfortunately there isn't much authentic information about Hunnic language (or languages) to allow us to make some final conclusion.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 26, 2011 1:40:25 GMT 3
yeah exactly, but we DO know the gothic language... i'm just following the principle of Occam's razor here. if we accept Balamir as an authentic historical person, Attilas apparently Germanic name wouldn't be alone in the list of Hunnic rulers. thus, there's no need to conjecture a possible ethymology to a name that already 'fits'.
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Post by massaget on Oct 7, 2011 13:08:49 GMT 3
Attila also might be a distorted Gothic form of the old hungarian name Etele, wich means both the river Don and the Volga wich were called Etel. Naming after geographical names were very common, and the Hunnic forces were stationed around that territory so I consider it more possible than the name's origin is a mix of several words like atta, and il, etc.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 8, 2011 0:14:19 GMT 3
That would be one of the many Old Turkic loanwords in Hungarian.
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