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Post by keaganjoelbrewer on Nov 14, 2008 1:53:05 GMT 3
Attila was not Attila's real name, it is a romanisation. There were others in the fifth century who had the name Attilus before Attila himself arrived on the scene. Apparently Attila's name had something to do with water. The various Turkic words for water seem to be similar to Attila: Atal / Itil / Atyl etc. Also, there is one source (a Polish chronicle) which refers to him as Aquila, which contains the Latin word aqua meaning water. One historian has suggested that his name is in fact a title comprising the words et ("great") and til ("sea"). Combining these two, he comes to the meaning of "oceanic ruler" or "universal ruler". In other words, a ruler whose territory stretches from ocean to ocean? Seems like a bit of a stretch to me. One interesting thing that came to my mind when I was reading up on this is why the name Attila ends with an 'a'. In the Latin language, an 'a' ending denotes a female person, whereas 'us' denotes a male. Compare, for example, Juli us Caesar and his wife Juli a. I wonder why Attila has been preserved with a feminine name, and yet there are others who have been preserved as Attil us. Of course, all the various peoples that wrote about Attila had different ways of spelling his name. In the Latin sources, it's Attila or Attilas. In Greek, it was Attilas. Later on in German it became Ätzel (pronounced Etzel) in the Nibelungenlied, and it was Atli in the Volsunga Saga. I think it's very interesting that what we have here is one of the most famous figures in all of history, and we don't even properly know his name haha
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Nov 14, 2008 2:46:35 GMT 3
Yeah he should have had a name probably compatible to the Old Turkic phonetic systems. there is a chance that it got romanized.
Aquila means "eagle" in Latin. But "a" at the end could be also a preservation of the original spelling, which means the original form may have contained final "a". Yet final "a" does not always mark the maculine genus whereas there are names like Galba, Caligula or Luca (Hebraic cognate) for men.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 14, 2008 11:07:00 GMT 3
I recently found an article about this subject written by Karoly Czeglédy, gonna read it soon.
I personally believe that the name of Attila is probably from Old Turkic word Ätil which means "River". Besides the famous Ätil/Itil (Volga) river, there is another river named with this word: Etelküzü (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory#Etelk.C3.B6z). Indeed, there are many words in Turkic used for "river", such as Ïrmaq (Irmak) and Ögüz; Ätil is one of them.
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Post by keaganjoelbrewer on Nov 14, 2008 13:39:41 GMT 3
Ahh thanks for the corrections Azandan Januspar. I should have realised aquila is 'eagle'. Apparently, it can also mean 'battle-standard', because of course the Roman battle standards had eagles on them.
Thanks also for pointing out the other male Roman names ending in a. Caligula... I can't believe I missed that one haha.
And I tend to agree that Attila probably has something to do with this Old Turkish word Ätil. Any idea what the significance of his being named after a river is?
And also Ihsan, what language is that article in? I wouldn't mind giving it a read myself, assuming of course it's in a language I read hehe.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 15, 2008 2:22:58 GMT 3
The Turks and Mongols have interesting name-giving traditions. One of them is giving the names of natural landscapes such as lake, river, sea, mountain, stone, etc. The other one is naming the child according to the first thing the mother sees after giving birth ;D Well since I got so many articles nowadays, I can't remember which language that one was written, but it's probably English or Turkish
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2008 5:22:09 GMT 3
Isn't it believed that Atilla was probably buried right next to a river, then they widened the river out by digging out of it's side so that it would cover his grave?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2008 5:23:15 GMT 3
If I have a son I'm going to name him after Atilla.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 15, 2008 14:00:16 GMT 3
Yes, he was buried in the riverbed of th Tisza River if I remember correct. If I were you, I wouldn't have named my child after a Germanised/Latinised version of a Turkic name ;D
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Post by keaganjoelbrewer on Nov 15, 2008 16:23:43 GMT 3
Yeah, I wouldn't call my son Attila either. He'd get a lot of prejudice I would think. Attila was a warlord after all.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 15, 2008 16:38:20 GMT 3
But it's a common name in Turkey and Hungary ;D I see nothing bad at naming my child after a great leader like him, but I don't like giving corrupted foreign forms like Mete, Attila, Teoman, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2008 6:14:56 GMT 3
Tell me Atilla's real name and I'll use that, untill then we use 'Atilla' or don't mention him at all. As for the other names mentioned we know their original names.
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Post by Temüjin on Nov 16, 2008 21:50:24 GMT 3
Attila is Gothic, not Roman/latin version. compare to Wulfila, Totila. -ila is typical ending for Gothic names or Germanic names in general, for example in Swabian it's -le (you can check my family name at facebook), for Swiss it's -li, bavarians/austrians just -(e)l, or modern high German -lein also in gothic ata means father as well as in turkish so it is suggested that Attila means father, at least what his Germanic allies called him. middle-high-German Etzel (not with an Ä) is a "corruption" of Attila, not a different name altogether. such an ending like -ila is also typical in salvic langauges, to make something call small (not in a degradign way) or cozy (in a sympathic way).
the point is, his name (or at least the germanic name) is something like at(a) + ila, not atil + a.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2008 22:32:41 GMT 3
I just found this on the internet, it's basically what you just posted. ATTILA Gender: Masculine Usage: History, Hungarian Pronounced: ə-TIL-ə (English) [key] Means "little father" from Gothic atta "father" combined with a diminutive suffix. This was the name of a 5th-century leader of the Huns who invaded and ravaged Europe before finally being slowed down at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains in Gaul. Attila was the name given to him by his Gothic-speaking subjects in eastern Europe; his real name may have been Avithohol. www.behindthename.com/name/attilaI also bumped into this site which I'm not too sure about, see for yourself: wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_were_the_Huns
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 16, 2008 23:13:22 GMT 3
Tell me Atilla's real name and I'll use that, untill then we use 'Atilla' or don't mention him at all. As for the other names mentioned we know their original names. It's probably Ätil. Don't you read the posts? As for the "Little Father" theory. Ok for the Gothic version, but the word "Ata" used in Turkic for "father" can be found starting from the Uyġur period. Before that, the words used for "father" in Old Turkic was Qaŋ (not to be confused with Qan or Khan) while "ancestor" was Äčü and Apa.
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Post by Temüjin on Nov 16, 2008 23:21:19 GMT 3
so are there other meanings of "ata" in old Turkic?
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