Avars and Ruanruan

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

(Originially posted by me at October 17, 2004)
----

Were the Avars in Eastern-Central Europe related with the Ruanruan in Mongolia? I think that's quiet impossible. If yes, we would appreciate someone to show us some evidences


----------------


(Originially posted by Rava at October 19, 2004)
----

Avars were reported close to Balklash Lake and aprox. 461-463 forced Sabirs as far as over Volga River. Accordingly to Priscus Rethor because "a fog rose from the sea scaring people" and this was followed by countless "vultures descending upon the people". This remains a description of some vulcano activity and in fact there was "stinky" Turfan vulcano close to this area.. For instance Chinese chronicles gave us a description of Turfan activity during Sang dynasties (960-1279) stressing frog of smog. Perhaps Turfan was active in the 5th century as well however I didn't get confirmation of that in the literature. Seems that the smog killed animals, and maybe people too and this is why the vultures had a lot of work... brrr. Therefore Awars couldn't be related to Mongolian Tribes.


----------------


(Originially posted by me at October 19, 2004)
----

But the same Byzantine source state out that there were "Real Avars" and "Fake Avars", meaning that the two peoples were unrelated except in names maybe.

And I keep seeing the Uars and Khionites (Red Huns?) as the ancestors of European Avars, who exactly were they? Were they related with the Ruanruan in any way?

Chinese sources say that most of the Ruanruan were massacred by the Western Tuoba Wei and the new rising power of the Tujue (Gök Türk) Qaghanate.


----------------


(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
----

But the same Byzantine source state out that there were "Real Avars" and "Fake Avars", meaning that the two peoples were unrelated except in names maybe.
This dillema appeared in some diplomatic affair between the Byzantine Emperor and Turkic Kagan. Turks were driving mad that Avars used the title Kagan. Turks claimed that in fact they were Varchonites not "proper" Avars. The other source, Paul Diakon, wrote that Avars previously were known as Huns but now using the name of their king. I assume that they might used the name of a king's clan or tribe (not a particular name of a person) entitled - being of turkic stock - to use this title. As far as I remember it was wrote in one of Bugut inscriptions that at one time only one turkic tribe is entitled to choose the Kagan for all the tribes?

And I keep seeing the Uars and Khionites (Red Huns?) as the ancestors of European Avars, who exactly were they? Confused" Were they related with the Ruanruan in any way?
It is my historical obsesion... who they were. Theres not to much information and mostly speculations. One relation (Marcellinus) from the siedge of Amida pointed out that Grumbates the King of Chionites lost "his beautiful son". This excludes their Mongol or Hunnic origin from the point of view of Romans sense of esthetic.
Sources put those two tribes always together but rather as the cooperative neighbours.
It's known that Chionites attacked Sogdiana from the North, perhaps their homeland was at the banks of the Caspian See (Ptolemy's Chunni)
However it seems that Red Huns were not identical or the synonymus of the Chionites as a whole ethnos. Perhaps they ruled Ferghana before were forced by the Hephtalites.
Their Capital City was Bolo (undiscovered). Some think that their name is connected with the red color of the warriors' dress and armour - but most of the armies at then were red dressed. Another assume (on the basis of some mural paintings) their darker skin. Well it's a subject for a comprehensive discussion and it's up to you
if you intend to carry it on here, in this topic - or to start a new one devoted to H'yaona and their descendants.
Var/Uar tribe was reported at the banks of Til river called by Turks "black water" or "black river". This remains me the early name of Volga River i.e. Itil but was Volga named black by the Turks?


Chinese sources say that most of the Ruanruan were massacred by the Western Tuoba Wei and the new rising power of the Tujue (Gök Türk) Qaghanate.

From the diplomatic correpondence it is evident that Varchionites left Central Asia when Turks in alliance with Persians attacked this territory. There were 20000 of them, perhaps only the warriors number was estimated.
Does Ruanruan means something in the chinesse or just recalls a sound of their genuine ethnonym? I read that it means 'insects'.


----------------


(Originially posted by me at October 22, 2004)
----

As far as I remember it was wrote in one of Bugut inscriptions that at one time only one turkic tribe is entitled to choose the Kagan for all the tribes?

Uhm, at which row exactly? (I got it's text)

Well it's a subject for a comprehensive discussion and it's up to you
if you intend to carry it on here, in this topic - or to start a new one devoted to H'yaona and their descendants.

Ok, I'll open a new thread.

This remains me the early name of Volga River i.e. Itil but was Volga named black by the Turks?

I don't know. never heard that :oops:

Does Ruanruan means something in the chinesse or just recalls a sound of their genuine ethnonym? I read that it means 'insects'.

Well, their name has a few versions in Chinese:

蠕蠕 Ruánruán (Rúrú): Squirming insects
柔然 Roúrán: Soft correct (which doesn't have a meaning so Rouran must be the transcription of a foreign name)
茹茹 Rúrú: Couldn't find a meaning

The most widely used version was Ruanruan I guess.


----------------


(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
----

That was in Orchon inscription.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

(Originially posted by Temujin at October 22, 2004)
----

One relation (Marcellinus) from the siedge of Amida pointed out that Grumbates the King of Chionites lost "his beautiful son". This excludes their Mongol or Hunnic origin from the point of view of Romans sense of esthetic.

well, but the Kypchak women were considdered as very beautiful by the Russians, but they were different in looks than the Russians.

Some think that their name is connected with the red color of the warriors' dress and armour - but most of the armies at then were red dressed. Another assume (on the basis of some mural paintings) their darker skin.

well, that's connected tot he four directions "colour-code" of the Steppe people. black (north), blue (west), white (east), red (south)

like in blue horde/white horde of the mongols for example.... so black huns means northern husn and red huns means southern huns


----------------


(Originially posted by Rava at October 22, 2004)
----

well, but the Kypchak women were considdered as very beautiful by the Russians, but they were different in looks than the Russians.

We are talking about historical cues and Romans' ideal beauty is well known. Marcellinus didn't like Huns features and he probably would say that Chionites were like Huns. Remember that he described White Huns as different than other Huns? Anyway... poor Kypchak women as an object of Russian interest... ;D

well, that's connected tot he four directions "colour-code" of the Steppe people. black (north), blue (west), white (east), red (south)

That's right. It worked in the case of Black Hungarians and other Turkut tribes. While I doubt if it is applicable in case of Red Huns. If they dwelled in Ferghana valley, accordingly to Litvinskij, than White Huns should be from Xinjiang however most probably they were highlanders from Pamir valleys. White and red colors could describe the religious complex as well.


----------------


(Originially posted by karakhan at October 23, 2004)
----

Question.

What was the physical features of the Kipchaks at that time? Was theya s mongoloid as say Kazakhs and Mongols? more Slavic looking like Chuvash? Or something in between like Bashkirs? Or having Caucasus features like Azeris and Georgians?


----------------


(Originially posted by me at October 23, 2004)
----

Question.

What was the physical features of the Kipchaks at that time? Was theya s mongoloid as say Kazakhs and Mongols? more Slavic looking like Chuvash? Or something in between like Bashkirs? Or having Caucasus features like Azeris and Georgians?

In Turkey, it's said that the Kypchaks were all blonde and blue eyed; however I wonder if this has a basis or not. I really want to see an original 11th-13th century source that describes the physical features of the Kypchaks.

Btw, it's Caucasoid


----------------


(Originially posted by Temujin at October 23, 2004)
----

In Turkey, it's said that the Kypchaks were all blonde and blue eyed;

I found out that Kuman seems to mean "yellow" and some historicans seem to believe this is referign to their hair color... ;D


----------------


(Originially posted by me at October 23, 2004)
----

Yes I heard that too but I'm not very sure of it's credibility


----------------


(Originially posted by Temujin at October 24, 2004)
----

colours as names or part of names are not uncommon for Steppe people and hardly if ever refer to appearance.

[Rava]

Is this author O.K? I really don't know which turkic sites are reliable ones.

sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/26Kipchaks/SakalibaEn.htm

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Hmm, the Sakâliba are the same with Slavs and they surely aren't Turkic.

The Bulgars weren't a Qïpchaq people either, they were a separate Turkic people on their own. Though most of the Volga Bulgars later mixed with the Qïpchaq refugees and created the Kazan Tatars, some of them kept their culture and survived as today's Chuvash, who speak a very different Turkic language.

[asiaticus]

Tigin wote: <<It's known that Chionites attacked Sogdiana from the North, perhaps their homeland was at the banks of the Caspian See (Ptolemy's Chunni)>> . Sorry, it is not really known where did come from Chionitae. Ammianus Marcellinus only notes their alliance wit Persians without other specification.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Prof. Dr. Ahmet Taþaðýl from the Mimar Sinan University is going to present an article about the Rouran-Avar Issue in the Fifteenth Turkish History Congress which is going to take place in Ankara between September 11 and 15. I probably will not be able to go to the congress (because it is located in a hotel outside the city, on the airport way) but I am planning to get a copy of the journal in which the presented articles will be published.

[Asparuh]

I don't know about the relation of the Avars with the Ruanruan people,but is that has something to do with the uncle of Attila called Rua ? Is it a Hun name ?
And one more thing about the avars .
In 6 century they had powerful leader called Khagan Bayan ,which was probably of Bulgarian origin,because when the Avars conquered part of the bulgarian tribes like the onoghurs and kutrighurs they formed part of the their union.
So actually in the Avar Khanate they were lots of Bulgars as well.
:)Sorry,we are everywhere.
Speak more about this in The Bulgar topic.
Bye !

[sarmat]

Nov 20, 2004 19:09:39 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

茹茹 R¬ìr¬ì: Couldn't find a meaning

ru2
1.entangled roots
2.to eat; to taste
3.to experience
4.stinking

[sarmat]

Apr 7, 2009 3:59:20 GMT 3 Asparuh said:

I don't know about the relation of the Avars with the Ruanruan people,but is that has something to do with the uncle of Attila called Rua ?

I don't think so.

Apr 7, 2009 3:59:20 GMT 3 Asparuh said:

And one more thing about the avars .
In 6 century they had powerful leader called Khagan Bayan

Bayan is also a Mongolian name

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Bay and Bayan are Turkic words, also borrowed by the Mongols

In 6 century they had powerful leader called Khagan Bayan ,which was probably of Bulgarian origin,because when the Avars conquered part of the bulgarian tribes like the onoghurs and kutrighurs they formed part of the their union.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Avar imperial family was of Bulghar origin



By the way, Peter B. Golden suggests that the original form of Rouran 柔然 might be *Nönör, which might have been related with the Mongolian word Nökör.

[ALTAR]

Avars and Ruan Ruan Question is a very complex problem in our history. Sadly we haven't had enough sources about this. Anyway Thanks Ihsan, Rava and Temujin for their aids.

[Asparuh]

Ok, guys ,
Here you can read something about the Avars and Ruanruan :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars

It also says that the Avar Khanate was a multi-ethnical union and amongst other nations in it there were the Bulgars as well
I have one image which shows Avar and Bulgar warriors.
Avars and Bulgars attacked several times the east Roman empire- Vyzantium.So actually there was strong military union between Avars and Bulgars in 5-6 century.They were mixed marriages between Avars and Bulgars as well.Sorry for being a little bit out of the main theme,but i got very interested.
It's certain - Bayan is a name of asiatic - Turk-Mongol origin and it means : Powerful,rich.The eldest son of Bulgarian Khan Kubrat had the same name Bayan
Here is some info :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(Avar_Khagan)

[realhun]

I found this bit of info. in a Wikipedia article and I copied and pasted it below:

One body of people, perhaps wishing to evade Göktürk rule, escaped and migrated to the northern Caucasus region c. 555 AD. According to Simocatta, their new neighbors believed them to be the true Avars. They established diplomatic contact with the Byzantines, and the other nomadic tribes of the steppes lavished them with gifts. However, the Göktürks later persuaded the Byzantines that these nomads were not the real Avars, but were instead a group of "fugitive Scythians" who had fled from the Göktürks and stolen the prestigious name of Avar[7]. Hence they have subsequently been called pseudo-Avars.

For all the theories, historian Walter Pohl asserted in 1998, instancing the detailed attempts made by H. W. Haussig in 1953[8] and K. Czeglèdy in 1983[9] and his own methodological objections[10]: "It is pointless to ask who exactly the forefathers of the European Avars were. We only know that they carried an ancient, very prestigious name (our first hints to it date back to the times of Herodotus); and we may assume that they were a very mixed group of warriors who wanted to escape domination by the Göktürks."[11] If the Avars were ever a distinct ethnic group, that distinction does not seem to have survived their centuries in Europe. Being an 'Avar' seems to have meant being part of the Avar state (in a similar way that being 'Roman' ceased to have any ethnic meaning). What is certain, by the time they arrived in Europe, the Avars were a heterogeneous, polyethnic people.[7][12] Modern research shows[13] that each of the large confederations of steppe warriors (such as the Scythians, Xiongnu, Huns, Bulgars, Avars, Khazars, Cumans, Mongols, etc.) were not ethnically homogeneous, but rather unions of multiple ethnicities.

Whatever the origin of the initial group of nomadic warriors, the Avars rapidly intermixed with the Slavic population on the lower Danube basin and Pannonian plain [14]. Slavic was likely used as a lingua franca within the khaganate amongst the disparate peoples[15][16]. Anthropological research has only revealed few skeletons with Mongoloid-type features, although there was a continuing cultural influence from the Eurasian nomadic steppe.

The above info. supports what I've been saying all along. Many of the people from the various Steppe Tribes weren't ethnically, culturally and linguistically homogeneous. This became even more evident pertaining to the tribes that invaded and settled in Europe. Also, I've read that the Avars had significant interations with the Ruanruan prior to their Westward migration and invasion of Europe.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Many of the people from the various Steppe Tribes weren't ethnically, culturally and linguistically homogeneous.

Of course, we all know that But among these tribes and empires, there had always been a dominant people, language and culture.

[realhun]

No disputing this fact. I agree with you 100%. In regards to the domination of the Avar culture during their empire in Europe: You make a very valid point. This is why in recent years archaeologists have been finding a lot more Avar artifacts and clothing in present day Eastern Austria, Bavaria, East Germany and throughout the rest of Central and Eastern Europe during the time period of their empire in Europe. It's now believed that Avar influence on the Germanic and Slavic people they subjugated was such that those people adopted their culture and also wore the distinct Avar clothing.

I've read when the Magyars migrated into the Danubian Basin they found many pure Avar people still living in the Northern region of what was to become the Magyar Empire. This region included all of present day Slovakia and the very Southern area of present day Poland. Slovakia was part of the Old Hungarian/Magyar Empire for about 1,000 years until the end of WWI. I've read because the Magyars had a similar culture and language to the Avars they were able to quickly get the Avars to unite and assimilate with them. This made it much easier for the Magyars to quickly gain control and maintain control of the Northern region of their empire for many centuries. Archaeologists have located one of the major walled cities the Avars built throughout Europe in Slovakia including many Avar artifacts. There's a valid reason why both my Grandparents spoke Magyar as their main language and not a Slavic or Germanic language even though their original villages are located in the very Southern region of Poland today.