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Post by keaganjoelbrewer on Dec 13, 2008 13:06:27 GMT 3
Just to clarify... the n with the tail is like the ng in going in English?
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 13, 2008 22:42:59 GMT 3
Just to clarify... the n with the tail is like the ng in goi ng in English? Usually.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 13, 2008 22:53:42 GMT 3
The Starling project shows Baġatur as a Proto-Turkic word *bAgatur "Comments: EDT 313, VEWT 55. Cf. the name of the Xiongnu shanyu, MC ma^w-ton (*maɣu-tur). This Turkic word was borrowed into numerous surrounding languages (Iranian, Mongolian etc., see the literature in ЭСТЯ). Modern forms like batɨr, batur are back-borrowings from Mong.; forms of the type baxatir - back-borrowings from Persian."
For trying to understand the consonant change in maoton/bagatur, Old Turkic and some of the modern Turkic languages still have this b-/m- thing going on. I don't remember the details on it... Old Turkic used both ben and men for "I" and also switched between b- and m- in demonstratives. You still see this in like Tuvan:
bo - this nominative moon - ablative monu - accusative mangaa - dative moong - genitive mynda - locative bozhe - allative
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 13, 2008 23:48:34 GMT 3
That's the Nasal N sound, like the "ng" in Chinese. It's not really a hard "n-g" sound, but closer to "n". That's why I use that sign to clarify it from the "n-g" sound. Hmm nice Actually, the shortened form Batur exists in a short Yenisei Qïrġïz inscription. That's true; B, P, F, W, V, M and N are very close sounds in Turkic languages that can easily change.
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Post by hjernespiser on Dec 14, 2008 3:52:15 GMT 3
Some excerpts on b-/m- from Erdal's "A Grammar of Old Turkic".
" Extending our scope of 'Old Turkic' beyond the Orkhon inscriptions, we find additional secondary features: e.g. vowel roundings after onset b in words such as büt- 'to come to an end, be perfected', buzagu 'calf' or bulït 'cloud' in runiform mss., whereas a number of modern Turkic languages have the original unrounded vowels; also, e.g., words starting with m<b when the next syllable has a nasal. " pg. 10-11
" There are, however, some clear differences even between the runiform inscriptions from Mongolia: Tuñ has bän as independent pronoun but uses män within the verb phrase, while KT and BQ (Kul Tegin and Bilge Qan) have män everywhere; ŠU (?) from the Uygur kaghanate again has bän as independent pronoun, however, and Taryat (also Uygur kaghanate) even has bän following a verb form. " pg. 12
" The opposition between oral labials and /m/ is cancelled for most of Old Turkic when an onset is (after a vowel) followed by a nasal, as is then replaced by /m/. " pg. 62
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 14, 2008 13:50:08 GMT 3
That is probably a mis-transcription of the Chinese transcription of a Hunnic name. If I had seen the Chinese characters, I would have told you how properly it was written, but right now I can't make any sense from it Tudun is a Turkic administrative title. The root word is Tut- meaning "to handle, to control". It was used by 6th-11th centuries Turkic empires for state officials who acted as tax collectors and regional governors, often sent to subject peoples or city-states. The Avars borrowed it from the Celestial Turks (Tujue 突厥). Qatun was used by Turko-Mongol empires for the major wives of rulers. The origin of the word is disputed; there are different theories claiming that this word might be Turkic or Soghdian. Personally, I am not sure. Tarqan was also an administrative title with many duties. The origin and meaning of the word is disputed, but it's probably a common Altaic word; it might be Turkic too. That is the Šinė Us Шинэ Ус Inscription
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