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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 22:18:17 GMT 3
I can tell you that in the 80t 90th when I met them, It was impossible to distinguish. at least for me. because they were denied to practice their customs and language. it was YOU who came here and called fellow Turks as traitors, that also happened some 70 years ago. so it is not you to judge this. when the English occupied ireland many Irish fled to other countires like France and Spain but also Austria and even Russia, like for example O'Rourke family. they did this because they refused to accept English occupation of their country and tried to fight on in other armies and those Irishmen were called "Wild Geese". the Poles in ww2 did something very similar to this. it is idiotic to claim they were traitors because they refused to fight in the army of the country that occupied their REAL fatherland. you said people should forget about the past, i don't think so, why you come to a history forum and say we should forget about what happened? those past conflicts can't be undone, and they should not be fogotten. but i also tell you: Turks will never accept being under Russian overlordship as much as Russians accept being under Turk overlordship. those are historical facts as we can see in reality. Russians fought against the Khanates and Turks fought against Russians, that is proove enough they don't want to live together. look at Austria-Hungary who was also a big multi-ethnic state. today, even Czechs and Slovaks don't want to live in the same country! by what you say you betrayed yourself of being Russian. you might have Turkic roots but you are only a Turk on paper. Russians have shown to forget about history very fast. 70 years ago they were almost destroyed by Fascist forces, but nowadays the Russian Fascists belong to the biggest in the world. Poles told me how they were chased in the streets by Russian gangs. Russians today have great hatred for Poles. Why are you so mad about all these? And why are you pointing on the Russian neo-nazist? Do you know that Turks are also attacked frequently by Neo-Nazists in Germany? So what? I should cry out that modern Germany is a Neo-Nazi state? Those words about traitors are said by the tenth of thousands of Soviet Turkic WWII veteran who are still alive, and they will repeat it again and again. You seem to be really caring about inspiring the animosity between Russians and Tatars, I don't know for what reasons. Based on your "historic" approach all the Jews should utterly hate German state now. Because of the history. What I'm saying is that I don't want bad past to create a bad future. For some reasons, you can't understand that there were millions of Turks who fought in the Soviet Army and thought they were fighting for their fatherland. This idea simply can't fit all your "perfect" understanding of history. Yes, they thought like that. You can explain why they did it and find many reasons, but fact remains the fact. Those who joined the wermacht thought in another way. But they were a minority. Perhaps, they called the Turks in the Soviet army the traitors. It's there right. Like my right is to say what I think. You can't understand that, can you?
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 22:20:35 GMT 3
In fact, it's obvious that they joined Wermacht only to save their life. thats not true, the whole Cossack Regiment of Col. Kononov changed sides on their own will, they were no PoW. like Stalin you distrust your own PoWs, who thougth all of them were traitors. again you display communist propaganda.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 22:27:04 GMT 3
THIS IS FOR YOU TEMUJIN www.akorda.kz/www/www_akorda_kz.nsf/sections?OpenForm&id_doc=872D47D11119C365462572340019E704&lang=enSpeech by President N.A. Nazarbaev of the Republic of Kazakhstan at the parade devoted to the 60th anniversary of the victory and XIII anniversary of the military forces of the Republic of Kazakhstan The President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev has congratulated veterans of World War II with the 60th anniversary of VE-Day. ‘The World War II was the most tragic page in the mankind’s history. For nations of former Soviet Union it became the great patriotic war as not only Army, but the entire nation rose to defend Fatherland. Many countries participated in the war. But the major burden was laid on Soviet people and USSR Armed Forces. Kazakhstan also took part in World War II. And younger generation will never forget the feat of the elderly who saved the world from fascism. Each family in Kazakhstan suffered from the war. The population was 6,200,000 in Kazakhstan before the wartime. Its fourth part, over 1,700,000 went to front, with half never came back. Kazakhstani units started battling near Moscow in 1941, and ended 1945 in Berlin. Our soldiers defended Leningrad, Stalingrad, Kurskaya Duga; they freed Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Baltic, countries of Europe. Our soldiers fought bravely. 500 Kazakhstan nationals became Heroes of Soviet Union. Our people worked for victory at home front also. Plants and factories, and tens of thousands workers and their families, population of front-line area were evacuated to Kazakhstan from June to November 1941. The hospitable Kazakhstan became native land for hundreds of thousands migrants from territories conquered by enemy, and for nations forced to move to Kazakhstan (ethnic Germans of Volga region, and nations of North Caucasus). We thrashed fascists and allies thanks to unity of nations, mass heroism on battle fields and home front. For the first time in our history we set the independent state. In a short period Kazakhstan has become the leader in conducting market and democracy-based reforms, and in increasing living standards among CIS member states. On the eve of great holiday we are paying court to those who perished during the War. We will always remember and celebrate VE-Day as a sample of true love of older generations to Homeland, education of the youth in the spirit of courage and patriotism,’ said President N. Nazarbayev.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 22:34:41 GMT 3
You can't understand that, can you? it's you who can't understand. you think everyhting your grandfather did was right. Hitler created Slovakia and Croatia, and those countries still exist today and abondend Communism, that shows what those people really want.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 22:40:14 GMT 3
they freed Ukraine, Belarus, Moldova, Baltic, countries of Europe. thats ridiculous, those countries were not liberated, on the contrary, it was the Red Army who ended the freedom of the baltic countries in 1940, NOT Germany. Red Army also ended the independence of Ukraine 20 years earlier. anyone with a brain would know that and don't eat nuts propaganda about heroism and crap. they were deported there by the Government, he makes it soudn as if they fled from Germans... and Kazakhstan had no choice but to take them anyways. for your information, Soviet Union also annexed Tannu Tuva in 1944 which was a Turkic country.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 23:03:54 GMT 3
I have shown you enough evidence that many Turks in Russia and the former USSR think like me. Even the president of an independent Turkic country.
You simply, can't accept the things which are weird to you. I and many other people can't accept things that are weird to us. That's it.
You may think whatever you want, that's your right. I showed you clearly that many Turks think differently. You think you are the only one right, they on the contrary have another rationale. I have grown up with this understanding of the history, I mean about the meaning of WWII for Tatars, I presented here. At the same time, I love my Turkic people and dislike any oppresion of tatar nation by Russians. My own family suffered much from communism.
But, you can't suddenly change my perception of it, by saying smth. like you said before. You also wouldn't be able to change the perseption of WWII for many millions of Turks, who perhaps even don't know about your ideas and will live with the idea that when their grandfathers fought in the Soviet army they fought for good things and protected their fatherland. You can call it brainwash etc. I can call you brainwashed (may be you are not, but it's hard for me to judge fair enough). I also see that you are very biased towards Russia.
Perhaps we just should finish this discussion at this point. Yes, may be I was rude, when I said that about Turks who cooperated with Wermacht. I can't judge them and I don't know how would I myself behave in their shoes. In fact, the first batallion of Idel-Ural which was supposed to fight on the eastern fron rebelled and joined Russian partisans in Belarus. That's why Germans used it later only in the occupied European countries but not on the Eastern Front.
That's it. Let us just remember the fallen ones. And let us hope such a terrible war won't happen again. Inshallah.
P.S. For your information Tuva was a sattelite state created byt the USSR, which was not recognized by anyone except the former and substantially was not different from the typical USSR republic at all. Common Tuvinian even didn't notice any change in their status. I mean it's not a very good example, if you want to prove Soviet imperialism to me. I believe that suppresion of some Turkic national movements in the USSR in the 80th is much more vocal in this regard.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 23:30:52 GMT 3
Ok, but one last word, i will tell you something that you probably don't know: Indians in ww2 fought mostly for the british Empire in ww2 even though the British occupid their country. some PoWs were in the wehrmacht, and a lot more were in the Japanese Army. before the outbreak of the war, there were heavy rebelliosn against the british in Idnia and the British government supressed them heavily. after the war they achieved their independence and everyone thinks it was the achievement of Ghandi. this is however not true. when war broke out Britain realized they could not win alone against nazis Germany. so they proposed a deal: if Indians help the British fight the Nazis then Britain will give India freedom. and so it happened, Indians fought against Germans but mostly against japanese in Burma, who also had their own small Indian liberation Army made up of PoWs under another liberation leader called Bose. so Indians in ww2 really fought for their fatherland, which they achieved few years after the war. but even the Japanese-backed Indian National Army of Bose was not viewed as traitors. Indians accepted that Bose was not like Gandhi and that he tried to achieve Indian independence by the principle "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". even during the war there was no question for Indians that the british still were their real enemies. compare that to what people like your grandfather got. a shiny medal and a pathetic speech of heroism and "liberating other countries". you can't buy freedom with medals. even today you can get those medals really cheap on the black market, all those Heroes of the Soviet Union can't feed their families with heroism.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 23:43:48 GMT 3
Thank you for your final words.
I just have to say that in my opinion you can't really compare India, which was s huge subcontinent with tiny british minority and the population which was never treated equally by the british colonisators and USSR where all the enthnicities had equal rights (at least officially) and the same passports and lived more or less on the same landmass. Even during the war they fought with the same units with Russians, but not in a separate "indegenous" units.
I understand that you think about Turks in Russia in the categories of Imperialist/Colonisator vs. victim/indegenous population. This category is not really aplicable to the case of modern Russia.
That's all I want to say, since I think it would be hard for us to refrain from the emotional reaction in the further dispute on this topic.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 23:48:11 GMT 3
this is the statue of Subhas Chandra Bose in India, the leader of the Indian National Army who fought with the Japanese.
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Post by arslan on Sept 8, 2007 0:07:48 GMT 3
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uyghur
Är
essalamu ,eleykom
Posts: 15
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Post by uyghur on Sept 18, 2007 17:50:41 GMT 3
Nice info!!! Thanks
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 18, 2007 23:46:10 GMT 3
Hello Uyghur, welcome aboard
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Post by yelenka on Sept 19, 2007 22:39:44 GMT 3
Hi! I just joined the forum today. I was deeply disturbed by this discussion. I am from Turkmenistan and I am half Turkmen and half Russian. I know from my personal experience that a lot of Turks coming from countries other than former Soviet republics, have a hard time understanding why Turks of Central Asia/Russia/etc. do not hate Russians. My husband is from Turkey and we argue on this topic all the time. The truth is Turks and Russians have lived together for a very long time and most of us have made peace with the turbulent history of the region. We have cultures that are very mixed, we have languages that are very mixed, we love the same land... Our people have intermarried so much, it is even hard to distinguish between the different nationalities. I think that most people of the USSR in WWII, Russians, Turks and others alike, were not defending the communist regime, they were defending their land, the land that they love, the land where their ancestors lived for centuries... It is not their fault that poor Central Eurasia had one of the most ridiculous regimes ever... People did not care about communism, they fought for their homeland... I think it is a very nice forum where a lot of interesting ideas are exchanged. Guys, let's not fight and get personal! Let's learn from each other! Hate has no place here, no matter what nationality you are...
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on Sept 20, 2007 3:39:14 GMT 3
...understanding why Turks of Central Asia/Russia/etc. do not hate Russians Dorogaya Yelena, this is not true at all. I would say that "Soviet" Turks have a love-hate relationship with the Russians. On one hand, Russians colonized, assimilated and killed many Turks. On the other, by colonizing Turks, Russians introduced them to the European civilization and progress.
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Sept 20, 2007 10:02:47 GMT 3
arslan the commie, I have a question to you? Do you consider Tatars in Finnish Army in Winter War and WWII to traitors? They were also in Axis side. No I don't. Those Tatars were born in Finnland and were fighting for their motherland. Unlike other German allies, Finnish army never went dipper to the Russian territory than it's own prewar borders. I have only respect for Finns and their wise leader Mannergeim. Finns also refused to give up their Jews and other minorities to Nazis. I have only repsect for this people. For Finnish Tatars-Finnland is the motherland, For Soviet Tatars-USSR was a motherland. Unlike the Finnish Tatars however, captures Soviet Pows were used mainly for crushing Partisans in Europe, cause they were not trusted enough by Wermacht. In fact, it's obvious that they joined Wermacht only to save their life. And please don't tell me that kind germans wanted to create independent Turkic states in the USSR. They viewed Tatars as subhumans even worse than Russians. And again Russians also were empolyed by Germans even in greater numbers than all the captured Svoiet Turks taken together. Dont call mongrelheim (mannerheim-scum) to wise Finnish leader! He was neither wise nor Finnish. If someone praises that dog here, it offends me as a Real Finn. Rot In Piss mongrelheim...
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