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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 1:15:18 GMT 3
The truth is that Russia now is a multiethnic state, where a lot of people of different ethnicities live with complicated history. But I, as well as my farther consder this land our fatherland, the same as many other Tatars, Bashkirs etc. multiethnic state... thats also what Chinese claim. thats bullnuts, Russia is not sucessor of the Golden Horde, Russia conquered the sucessor states of the Golden Horde. it is you who sees history as black and white. imagine if your grandfather had descided its best for fatherland to liberate it from Soviet Yoke and fought in the Turkestan Legion, i wonder if you would still say the same thing. it is YOU who want Kurd independence! now you contradict yourself... the Ukrainian National Army was not limited to western Ukraine, in fact western Ukraine was strongly supporting the Axis. the UNA operated in the heart of Ukraine.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 1:16:11 GMT 3
Well. I'm spreading my thoughts don't confuse if with "Russian propaganda" please.
But I don't think we can find a common ground if you think that any kind of "Hate" is an option.
It would perhaps be a big surprise for you but most of the Turks in Russia don't hate Russians. Central Asian Turks don't hate Russians as well.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 1:20:16 GMT 3
It would perhaps be a big surprise for you but most of the Turks in Russia don't hate Russians. Central Asian Turks don't hate Russians as well. The word hate implies to the policies of the Russian states, not to the common people.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 1:23:41 GMT 3
It would perhaps be a big surprise for you but most of the Turks in Russia don't hate Russians. Central Asian Turks don't hate Russians as well. tell that to Crimean Tatars and Kalmyks who got deported from their homelands in ww2. aren't those Turks/Mongols as well? you are lucky that your grandfather collaborated with the Russians, otherwise you would have never been born and talk such idiocy that insults your own people. btw notice what Tigin said above, we are against Russian government, not against Russian people. yes, nazis annihilate and enslave, but you claimed that Nazis assimilate. no, it is the Russians (and Chinese) who assimilate, thats why you are tolerated in their country, because you are already assimilated.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 1:27:22 GMT 3
Actually, Turks that fought in the Red Army were also subjected to the mass deportations.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 1:32:32 GMT 3
multiethnic state... thats also what Chinese claim. I don't know what Chinese claim, but I know that Tatars are second ethnicity in Russia by numbers, And unlike China Russia is a Federation if you didn't know that. Tatarstan has broad autonomy including right to create representave offices abroad. Does Chinese Turkestan have this right? No, it doesn't. Ruling eliete in Tatarstan is also tatars. Multiethnic state is a state where a lot ehtnicities live. Russia has about 100 ehtnicities, would be stupid to deny that. Yes, this is just your point of view. Are you familiar with the Russian historian Leo Gumilev, who actually was also Tatar? And the thing called Euroasianism? No? So there are monuments to that person in Kazan and Astana and he wrote that Russian empire is a political successor of the Golden Horde. Those people joined the legion to save their life. Most of the Turkic soldiers didn't do that. But even those who did later changed their opinion and deserted to the partisans. Besides, tell me what the fighting with the partisans in Yugoslavia and Italy has to do with the "Russian yoke." No, I'm not. I didn't say that I support it. But it's funny when people pointing at the others doing the same BS at their own home UNA fought with Germans as well; and they were not that actice in the other parts of Ukraine.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 1:47:16 GMT 3
tell that to Crimean Tatars and Kalmyks who got deported from their homelands in ww2. aren't those Turks/Mongols as well? you are lucky that your grandfather collaborated with the Russians, otherwise you would have never been born and talk such idiocy that insults your own people. It's obvious that you have never been to Russia. And never met Kalmyks or Tatars. The Kalmyks I know I in fact much more pro Russian than I am. Another thing, are you a Turk? I don't know why you make such a big fuzz about whom the Turks should love from Germany? We can't we decide it by our own? You know Germans killed Millions of Russians, Tatars etc. But Russians don't hate them. I also don't hate them. And even my grandfather doesn't hate them, although they almost killed him 50 years ago. You should understand, that there is no that much "hate" thing in Russia now. People are living together for so long and they don't really care now who was Tatar, Russian etc. May be some one would say it's bad. But I believe it's much worse when people are trying to dig out smth. bad the the past and then make the others hate their own neighbors. Besides, Turkic republics of the Central Asia are independent now. They can do whatever they want. I don't understand, why instead of propaganding tolerance and peace, Turks should keep and evil eye on Russia etc.? Is it very productive? No. Everybody is free to pursue its own interests without harming the others. And please don't touch my grandfarther. He spent 5 years in Gulag for "anticomunist activities" like teaching the Koran. I repeat you again, may be it would sound weird and strange for you, but a lot of Turks reallly believed that they fought for their Fartherland. May be it was an illusions, but that's what they believed. That's why they were capable of heroism.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 1:52:44 GMT 3
It's obvious that the independence of Central Asian Turkic states are just on paper; Russia still has it's cultural and political influenceon these nations.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 1:58:41 GMT 3
It's obvious that the independence of Central Asian Turkic states are just on paper; Russia still has it's cultural and political influenceon these nations. Well. To be honest, Russia is very weak now. And it doesn't have any decisive influence on any Central Asian republics. Yes, Kazakhstan cooperates with Russia, but more for its own benefit rather than under "Russian influence." Ozbekistan is complitely independent, the same is Turkmenistan. In fact, Turkmenbashi even expelled a lot of Russians from there. What Russia could do? Don't make a boggy out of Russia. It's more a paper tiger than a real bear. The age of empire is over.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 2:00:57 GMT 3
why you always talk about hatred? it is you who came here and insulted the tatars fighting in the Wehrmacht as traitors. and we posted both pictures of Turks who fought in the Wehrmacht and those that fought in the Red Army, where is the problem? now you even admit your grandfather was in a Gulag as well and still keep saying he did the right thing. probably thats how his Russian "friends" thanked him for being canon-fodder on the east front. also, it is irrelevant if Russia today styles itself a federation and how much autonomy Tarstan has or not. saying that Russia has 200 minorites doesn't really help, that just a relic of their imperialist past, it doesn't mean that they live there on their own free will. ask the Chechens.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 2:03:56 GMT 3
Well. To be honest, Russia is very weak now. And it doesn't have any decisive influence on any Central Asian republics. Yes, Kazakhstan cooperates with Russia, but more for its own benefit rather than under "Russian influence." Ozbekistan is complitely independent, the same is Turkmenistan. In fact, Turkmenbashi even expelled a lot of Russians from there. What Russia could do? Don't make a boggy out of Russia. It's more a paper tiger than a real bear. The age of empire is over. Than please tell us, why do the Turkic peoples from different countries usually speak in Russian between each other? Why do they still see Russia in the same way the Algerians see France or the Indians see Britain? Why Putin is always against the alphabet change in Qazaqstan? Why do the people in CA Turkic republics still use Russian suffixes in their lastnames?
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:09:50 GMT 3
Don't teach me what I should do, Ok? And don't touch my grandfather. He believed that he was protecting his land from the evil much greater than Gulag. He was in Gulag before the war. But during the war he was an officer and commanded Russian soldiers. He sent them to the fight not them sent him.
You are familiar with the realities of Russia like I'm familiar with the realities of Mars. Perhaps, you convinced yourself that Russia is an evil empire, where all hate the oppressors etc. Believe it or not, it's not true. Go by yourself and visit Russia, Tatarstan, Bashkortystan etc. and then make conclusions.
Chechnia is another topic. If you want, we can discuss it in another thread. But it's not very related to the Turks, anyway.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 7, 2007 2:13:09 GMT 3
Enough with your imperialistic propaganda. If you want to stay here, act normally and do not spread the ugly propagandas of Russia or China. We all are aware of the damages Russia and China did and still do to the various Turkic and Mongolic peoples.
Act like a Turk, not like a Russian!
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 7, 2007 2:16:27 GMT 3
You are familiar with the realities of Russia like I'm familiar with the realities of Mars. Perhaps, you convinced yourself that Russia is an evil empire, where all hate the oppressors etc. i was never in Russia but i know about their past and i know about the present from Volga Germans who left your paradise country where everyone loves the leadership... well, i will give you a fair discussion. i commented on your grandfather but you don't know me. my grandfather was conscripted in '41 for the invasion of the Soviet Union. he never liked war and he never cosniddered anyhtign warlike to be heroic. he was conscripted because he knew how to ride a horse. as you might know or not, German armies were not all about tanks. anyways, he was caputred in the re-taking of Smolensk. the Soviets started to kill his unit but when a high ranking officer arrived, he stopped the "heroic" executions and he eventually ended up in the Kharkov coal mines. his guards didn't treated him well, but local women often gave him bread whose care he appretiated greatly. he also told me he had never any hatred for Russians even after his time in the coal mines. before that, he also told me of the advance into Russia, how they made a lot of prisoners but he never glorifed anything, on the contrary, he told more about the hardships and i never had the feeling he considdered hismelf or what he was doing as heroic. personally, i also have no grief for common Russian people and i wouldn't welcome a war unless absolutely necessary. with all respect, but reading your posts i get the impression your grandfather was brainwashed in Gulag and he welcomed war a lot. otherwise they wouldn't have given him command over a unit, he must have become a true Communist. any real soldiers wouldn't call war heroic. seeing as you are familiar with English and have internet you hardly come from the rural area but i suspect you live in a major Russian city and most of your friends are Russians and you have no connection with "real" Turks from the rural areas, where the actual Turks live.
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Post by arslan on Sept 7, 2007 2:17:42 GMT 3
Than please tell us, why do the Turkic peoples from different countries usually speak in Russian between each other? Why do they still see Russia in the same way the Algerians see France or the Indians see Britain? Why Putin is always against the alphabet change in Qazaqstan? Why do the people in CA Turkic republics still use Russian suffixes in their lastnames?. Does these things have to do with the current Russian policy? It's the heritage of the USSR. As soon as Kazakhstan presidents decides they will transfer to the latin alphabet. BTW I was thinking all the time why Mongolians also still use Cyrillic alphabet? May they simply got used to it. Yes, they still speak Russians, but I'm not sure whether, they'll do it in 10-20 years. And Russia doesn't seem to care so much about that. The number of Russian speakers in the world drops year by year. But, to be honest, I don't think that knowing another foreign language is bad for Central Asians, it just gives them more opportunities. Don't you agree?
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