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Post by kokturk on May 19, 2007 1:49:12 GMT 3
Ivan the Terrible claimed to be Chinggisd from mother's side. Do I remember it correctly?
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on May 19, 2007 2:10:19 GMT 3
Ivan the Terrible claimed to be Chinggisd from mother's side. Do I remember it correctly? Ivan IV's mother Yelena Glinskaya was supposedly descended from Mamay, the tumenbashi of Golden Horde who was defeated by Toqtamish khan. Mamay was not a Genghisid, he was from the Kiyat tribe. Mamay's wife was a Genghsid, a daughter of Berdibek khan. One of Mamay's sons, Mansur Kiyat, supposedly escaped to Lithuania where his descendants later served the grand prince Vytautas and received the title of Princes of Glina ( Glinski) and lands around Poltava and other cities.
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Post by Temüjin on May 19, 2007 17:22:59 GMT 3
Rurik dynasty (9 - 16 cent) was Scandinavian (Varangian) in origin. Rurik dynasty only lasted until Olga the Saint, after that it was a different dynasty.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on May 19, 2007 23:22:25 GMT 3
Rurik dynasty only lasted until Olga the Saint, after that it was a different dynasty. Wow, Olga would not be happy with you for forgetting about her son, Kievan prince Sviatoslav Sviatoslav's descendants go all the way to Ivan the Terrible. In any way, what "different" dynasty were you talking about?
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Post by Temüjin on May 19, 2007 23:49:24 GMT 3
well, Sviatoslav was not Olgas son, he claimed that for legitimacy but he wasn't.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on May 20, 2007 0:10:33 GMT 3
These are merely your speculations )
Sviatoslav was always known as a son of Igor and Olga, both Scandinavian/Varangian noblemen. His father Igor was a Kievan prince.
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Post by Temüjin on May 20, 2007 0:54:28 GMT 3
the ancient sources are not as clear, this is just favourable depiction from later historians. it is just commonly accepted because it seems reasonable but at closer observation it is not likely Olga and him being related. but as sources are sparse no theory can be deciseively prooven.
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Post by BAWIR$AQ on May 20, 2007 1:54:00 GMT 3
Big deal if he's related to Olga or not.
He was a son of Igor (Rurik-descended Varangian), and that's what matters in patriarchal succession.
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Post by Temüjin on May 20, 2007 2:03:24 GMT 3
no i mean he was not related to Olga and Igor at all, and Rurikid dynasty was not patriarchal, otherwise Olga could not have suceeded Igor at all one argument for the theories against Svyatoslav being Rurikid.
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