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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 21, 2006 22:57:42 GMT 3
Let us talk about the Qara Khitai Empire I would like to see a list of their rulers. Were their rulers Buddhists? Which states were their vassals? I know the Khwarazmshâhs, the Western Qarakhanids of Samarqand, the Qarluq Yabghus of Northern Yedisu, the city-state of Almalïgh (founded by a Qañlï near the empire's end), the Naiman Khanate and the Uyghur Idiquts of Turfan. Were there any other vassals? What about Kâshghar? Was it still ruled by the Qarakhanid family during the Qara Khitai period? What about Khotan? And what about the Kereyit Khanate? What were the names given to the Qara Khitai? They are called Xīliáo (Western Liáo) 西遼 by the Chinese; are there any other names in the Chinese sources? The Mongols called them Khara Khitat (Black Khitans). What about the Islamic sources?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 23, 2006 0:19:35 GMT 3
A French map showing the empires of Qara Khitai and Khwarazmshâh.
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Post by tadamson on Sept 24, 2006 0:04:43 GMT 3
#1 they called themselves Western Liao #2 the ruling family were Buddist (and Shammanist) #3 the map has been drawn by someone who doesn't understand the history of the period.
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Post by tadamson on Sept 24, 2006 0:10:58 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 24, 2006 2:09:00 GMT 3
Here is a drawing from Angus McBride published in the book "Attila and the Nomad Hordes" of David Nicolle from the Osprey series. It shows Mongol, Naiman and Qara Khitai armored riders from the 12th century (the drawer noted that his drawing of the Qara Khitai nobleman was modelled from a Chinese painting depicting Uyghurs paying homeage to a Chinese general because he could not find any contemporary depictions of Qara Khitai soldiers; he also thought Turfanese Uyghur and Qara Khitai armament would have been similar). I guess so because they were under heavy Chinese influence. However, I would like to see some historical records written by them A. Zeki Velidî Togan claimed that they were Mânîkheists, I wonder where he got this information from. They were referred in the Islamic sources as Butparast ("Idol-worshipper" in Persian, but But/Put/Pût was also the Persian form of Sanskrit Buddha so Butparast also ment Buddhist), not Zïndïq ("Heretic", also used for Mânîkheists). Please, tell me why Which inaccurasies did you see? Except the Ghûrids ruling Tibet ;D Uhm thanks but that list only has the Khitan emperors of China
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Post by tadamson on Sept 24, 2006 16:28:07 GMT 3
[quote author=admin board=board16 thread=1158868662 post=1159052940 #1 they called themselves Western Liao[/quote] I guess so because they were under heavy Chinese influence. However, I would like to see some historical records written by them A. Zeki Velidî Togan claimed that they were Mânîkheists, I wonder where he got this information from. They were referred in the Islamic sources as Butparast ("Idol-worshipper" in Persian, but But/Put/Pût was also the Persian form of Sanskrit Buddha so Butparast also ment Buddhist), not Zïndïq ("Heretic", also used for Mânîkheists). Please, tell me why Which inaccurasies did you see? Except the Ghûrids ruling Tibet ;D Uhm thanks but that list only has the Khitan emperors of China [/quote] Drat... they were there last time I looked, never mind, this site has them (I just checked and they are accurate, though "David Küchülüg" is an unusual rendering, not wrong as such just I've never heard a historian put it that way) www.friesian.com/sangoku.htm#westliaoIt's an Indian site but remarkably free of flying machines, ancient ray guns etc... As for the map, it's down to the mix of timelines. Khwarizam never ruled Iran until after the demise of the QK. They used the QK army to defeat the Ghurids and their massive expansion East (all the way to the Punjab) was a result of them annexing the Western part of the Ghurid Empire. Even at the end Khwarizam was technically part of the QK Empire as it was a client state (as were the Kharakhanids, Naimen, Quangli Turks, Samarkhand and many lesser states/kingdoms etc). Khwarizami rule only reached the costal parts of Iran after the first Mongol war when the Mongols had fixed their border at the Oxus valley. Ownership of ground was extreemly fluid in the region throughout the period.
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Post by tadamson on Sept 24, 2006 16:37:55 GMT 3
I forgot to add... Küchülüg who overthrew the Emperor then proclaimed himself Emperor was, of course the leader of the Naimen and a Nestorian Christian. The Mongols attacked as he was their sworn enemy (and the only significant steppe leader still opposing Temuljin) and bulk of the various people in the QK seem to have immediately transferred allegiance to Temuljin (indeed the Uighir cities had already switched).
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 24, 2006 20:56:38 GMT 3
Thank you tadamson The site you gave me is super!
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Lannes
Tarqan
Da kine
Posts: 68
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Post by Lannes on May 26, 2008 6:06:34 GMT 3
Anyone have any scholarship to share on QK military craft? Looking around for info. on QK military composition, I found this excerpt (which, I think, is from Osprey's Atilla and the Nomad Hordes drawn from above by Ihsan) which generalizes that the QK military "included large numbers of infantry and that its weaponry reflected Chinese influence", but I wonder if that statement was meant the reflect the Khitai-Liao ancestors of the QK based on various other excerpts I've come across claiming the QK to have no significant infantry usage in the tradition of their new surrounding vassals? Edit: Hyperlink to excerpt now works.
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mwe
Är
Posts: 30
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Post by mwe on May 26, 2008 7:29:15 GMT 3
Biran's "The Empire of the Qara Khitai in Eurasian History" pegs the QK as a mostly light cavalry force, infantry could be supplied from vassals (for city defense and sieges - vassals would keep their armies) but was not as important as cavalry and most field armies would come from the light cavalry. Heavy cavalry was used but had declined in relation to the light cavalry compared to the Liao.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 27, 2008 19:56:22 GMT 3
Anyone have any scholarship to share on QK military craft? Looking around for info. on QK military composition, I found this excerpt (which, I think, is from Osprey's Atilla and the Nomad Hordes drawn from above by Ihsan) which generalizes that the QK military "included large numbers of infantry and that its weaponry reflected Chinese influence", but I wonder if that statement was meant the reflect the Khitai-Liao ancestors of the QK based on various other excerpts I've come across claiming the QK to have no significant infantry usage in the tradition of their new surrounding vassals? From what I read about the battles the Qara Kitans (Qara Khitai) fought with the Seljuks and Khwarazmshahs, they relied mostly on steppe-styled cavalrymen. I could not see much infantry forces, as far as I remember. One thing I remember is that they were more "steppe-like" than the Seljuqid army they defeated at Qatvan.
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Lannes
Tarqan
Da kine
Posts: 68
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Post by Lannes on May 27, 2008 22:50:39 GMT 3
From what I read about the battles the Qara Kitans (Qara Khitai) fought with the Seljuks and Khwarazmshahs, they relied mostly on steppe-styled cavalrymen. I could not see much infantry forces, as far as I remember. One thing I remember is that they were more "steppe-like" than the Seljuqid army they defeated at Qatvan. That's what I suspected was the actuality. That Osprey excerpt seems either to be referring to the Khitan-Liao or may simply be inaccurate.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 28, 2008 18:51:55 GMT 3
That is quiet possible indeed.
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Post by nanman on May 28, 2008 19:40:42 GMT 3
If it was true that the Qara Khitai contained a remnant of the Liao Khitan dynasty that fled West due to the rise of the Jin (Jurchen). I am intrigued to know how the word for China (Qitay?) in Turkish and some Slavic languages was derived from Khitan -> Cathay in English.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 30, 2008 2:41:21 GMT 3
It happened before the fall of the Liao, when the Kitans still ruled Northeastern China. The Liao-period Turks and Iranians had a very mixed up view of China. There were many terms used to identify the country; names like Tabghach/Tafghach (the name the Turks called China during the 6th-8th centuries; Mahmud of Kashghar says that this word means "Grand"), Chin (drives from the Persian name for the country), Machin (drives from Sanskrit "Mahachina", "Great China") and Khitai (areas ruled by the Kitans). Usually, Khitai was used for Northern China while Chin and Machin were prefered for central and perhaps southern parts of the country. The name Tabghach is even more vague.
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