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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 26, 2004 17:10:08 GMT 3
(Originially posted by me at October 29, 2004)---- This is the Sarmatian thread where we can talk about this interesting steppe people First, I would like to know their origins; Herodotos says they were hybrids between Scythian men and Amazon women, adding that Sarmatian was a corrupted form of the Scythian language. OTOH, I remember reading somewhere sometime that the ancestors of Sarmatians were closely related with the Massageths. Apart from language, the customs and religions of Scythians and Sarmatians was very similar to each other. The Sarmatians were of course a nomadic steppe people who lived in the Pontic-Caspian Steppes; indeed, it was the Sarmatians who destroyed Scythian domination of the Western Steppes in the 2nd century BC after Alexandros III (Alexander the Great) of Makedon weakened them a century before. Besides, like the Scythians, the Sarmatians worshipped sacred swords representing their war gods (the Huns also did something similar to that, because of Scytho-Sarmatian influence). However, even though the Sarmatians were typical light mounted archers at the beginning, some of their tribes developed a new way of fighting: making shock charges with cavalry armored from head to toe - the Cataphracts. It was these Sarmatian cataphracts that destroyed Scythian power, heavily influenced the Greeks of the Bosphoran Kingdom, served the Romans for a long time at places like Britain and Egypt, and finally, became the original model for the Medieval European Knights. Yet, even these powerful cataphracts were defeated by the Romans, Goths and finally the Huns. I'm not very sure on the origins of the Sarmatian cataphracts; IIRC they were shaped from the same Massagethic cataphracts but I'm not sure when and how the Massageths developed them. Was it a Massagethic invention? Another question related to the topic is that when did the Parthians started using cataphracts? Were these the ones who helped the development of Massagetho-Sarmatian cataphracts or were they themselves influenced from these steppe peoples? Anyway; Sarmatian cataphracts became Germanic heavy riders who shaped Carolingian Frankish Milites "Proto-Knights" who turned out to be the Knight. I must say I know little about Sarmatian tribes; the ones I know are the Iazyges (who migrated to Hungary after being defeated by Republican Rome), Roxolani (famous from helping the Dacians during Traianus' Dacian Campaign) and the Alani, who eventually became a separate people on it's own. I'm sure there were other tribes but these are what I heard. ---------------- (Originially posted by Temujin at October 30, 2004)---- well, it seems they were comming from the north into the caspian-pontic steppe and assimilating scythians on their way west. possible ugrian origin is possible. Massagets later joined with them and became the Alani, thatS' why they're regarded different from Sarmatians. and in fact it was not alexander that broke the Scythian power, in fact i've read that the scythians defeated one of his generals in a battle. the decline of the scythians was due to rebellion of their settled subjects and Sarmatian pressure. the origin of the cataphract is quite obscure, the earliest signs of contus-armed horsemen and completely armoured horse and rider originated from the transoxania area in the 4th century BC. the sarmatians had the cataphract before the parthians, but it's not certain if they adopted it from Sarmatians. other famous tribes were the Sauromati and the Aorsi. ---------------- (Originially posted by me at October 30, 2004)---- An interesting theory on Ugric origins of the Sarmatians, never heard that before. Hmm, is it true that these were actually modelled after Macedonian Heteroi? I thought Sauramatae was the earlier form of Sarmat. The Aorsi - I heard that name before. Do you have any detailed info on them? ---------------- (Originially posted by Temujin at October 30, 2004)---- I've heard that claim too but it's surely nonsense. the Macedonians under Alexander already faced more heavily armoured horsemen that were fighting for Darius III. and later sucessors like especially the seleucids had cataphracts and heavy horse resemblig those from the Steppe. so rather the other way round is likely. interesting however is the Sarissophori scout cavalry which resembled the Contophori lancers of the Steppe. well, Sauromatae is the same as Sarmatian, yes. the term is used to describe the earliest known Sarmatians that according to legend were hybrids of Scythian women and slaves. the Aorsi are one of the 4 Sarmatian tribes that occupied the Ukrainian Steppe after the Scythians have been driven off/assimilated and before being pushed into the Roman Emprie by the arrival of the Alans. the Iazyges and Roxolani were the westernmost of them, and the Siraces and Aoris the easternmost. the Aorsi are describe by Strabo to be divided into two subtribes. it seems the Aorsi also reached as far as the Aral sea and it seems they were known to the Chinese by the name of Yen-ts'ai and/or An-ts'ai (not sure about pinyin spelling). both tribes heavily influenced the Bosphoran kingdom and often intervened in their politics (like sucession issues). ---------------- (Originially posted by me at October 30, 2004)---- Indeed, cavalry in Greek armies appeared after Akhemenid invasions of Greece. Do you have a picture of a Sarissophoroi? Interesting, thanks (I didn't know the Siraces before too). So, I suppose the Sarmatian royal family that replaced the Greek royal family in the Bosphoran Kingdom was from either the Aorsi or the Siraces. Pinyin spellings should be Yan-cai and An-cai.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 26, 2004 17:40:36 GMT 3
(Originially posted by Rava at October 31, 2004)---- Pinyin spellings should be Yan-cai and An-cai. Don't you think it remains the ethnonim of Antes? Antes had dwelled north of the Goths before they became slavicized in the Avar times. Perhaps not all the Alans (in wide sense of this term) joined Huns going West and moved south to the Caucasus. Dionysius Periergetes speak of Alkaeentes Alanoi perhaps identical with those named by Ptolemy as Scythian Alans. What do you thin of that? ---------------- (Originially posted by me at October 31, 2004)---- Hmm, I don't know but possible. ---------------- (Originially posted by Temujin at October 31, 2004)---- I agree with Rava, the Alani must have been a fairly large Steppe confederation. parts of them reached Spain together with Vandals, soem were settled in todays France and at the time of the Mognols they were still present int eh Steppe north of Caucasus. unfortunately I don't have a picture of a Sarissophori. ---------------- (Originially posted by me at October 31, 2004)---- Another thing that I want to talk about is the useage of stirrups among the Sarmatians. In Ýlhami Durmuþ's book Ýskitler (Sakalar) [Scythians (Sakas)], I read that the Sarmatians used stirrups and this helped them defeat the Scythians. However, depictions of Sarmatian riders I saw show them without stirrups. So even if it was used, it must have be in a small number. Yet, I remember TJK and Sharrukin from AE telling us that the earliest forms of iron stirrups were found in Sarmatian graves. So, what do you think? ---------------- (Originially posted by Temujin at November 1, 2004)---- the stirrup-issue is quite vague. we know that Avars used iron stirrups and the byzantine army which became pretty Steppeified in nature adopted it on large scale. so the qustion is, why did earlier rome not adopt the stirrup along witht he cataphract? my explanation would be that most stirrups prior to avars were in fact not iron but of wood or leather thongs, and those would eb inferior to the later iron stirrups, this would be an explanation why the stirrup was not adopted like it happened later. therefore i conclude that iron stirrups prior to the avars were very rare, but it's quite secure to assume the stirrup in some form existed long before the avars. ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 1, 2004)---- Hmm, but the neither the Xiongnu in Asia nor the Huns in Europe used (iron) stirrups, IIRC no such examples have been found so far. I got another question: what was the Sarmatian religion like really? ---------------- (Originially posted by Arkhanson at November 1, 2004)---- Both of you know wrong sarmadians were turk ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 1, 2004)---- There are many people (including historians) who think the Sarmatians and Scythians were Turkic - just because they were nomads. Of course that is a very wrong approach. ---------------- (Originially posted by Arkhanson at November 1, 2004)---- well acually people are jerks of world we re er of world but also I know that they cannot be Turk ;D
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 26, 2004 17:55:04 GMT 3
(Originially posted by Rava at November 1, 2004)---- Acordingly to Tacitus and other classical sources Scythia and later Sarmatia started from Vistula River far to the East, literary to the vast steppes. Whose were the "the proper" Scythians or Sarmatians? It's more like talking about EU or Soviet Union. Kind of cultural pattern called Sarmatia. I have heard recently that many elements of Sarmatian culture were continued by Kyrgyzes. ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 1, 2004)---- Do you have any examples? ---------------- (Originially posted by Temujin at November 1, 2004)---- I have no idea about their religious believes, but I know it was very similar to Scythian believe. and of course there was also the famous sword as god of war worshipping. Attila has been said to have found the sword of mars (the god of war). I've thougth about that for a while, and by comparing it to the Arthur legend with excalibur i think it could have been a political move. by claiming the sword of the wargod one could claim overlordship over the Indo-iranian subjects of the Huns (and probably over the Steppe-dwellers in general). the king of a steppe confederation was also its military commander and by doing the sword ceremony he could gain legitimation as sole ruler (iirc Attila unfiied Huns). ---------------- (Originially posted by Rava at November 1, 2004)---- There's an interesting article about the history of the stirrup www.silk-road.com/artl/stirrup.shtml I can't find this text about Sarmatians and the influences on Turkuts culture. That was perhaps in this site: www.csen.org/---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 2, 2004)---- I think that must be purely because of Sarmatian influence, I don't think there were that much significiant differences between Turkic and Iranic nomads in the steppes so that the rulers' tried to influence them via their different cultures. Thanks for the links, Rava. Hmm, Mr. Dien's article makes no mention of Sarmatian stirrups. ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 2, 2004)---- Here is a small article about Sarmatian females warriors: Statues of Sauromatian and Sarmatian Women
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 26, 2004 18:09:08 GMT 3
(Originially posted by me at November 5, 2004)---- From now on, I'll keep posting online pictures about the Sarmatians, here are a few of them: ---------- www.fectio.org.uk/groep/draco6.jpgReconstruction drawing by Gerry Embleton, showing a Sarmatian in Roman service, based on the Chester stele as well as the 'dog' draco from Trajans Column. www.fectio.org.uk/groep/draco11.jpgThe funeral stele from Chester www.fectio.org.uk/groep/draco21.jpgReconstruction of the stele from Chester www.infoukes.com/history/inventions/figure06.gifSarmatian cavalryman from Ukraine on Trajan's Column in Rome www.livius.org/a/1/iran/sarmatian.jpgSarmatian horseman Drawing by Michail Gorelik www.livius.org/a/1/iran/sarmatian_torque.jpgSarmatian torque, found at Khokhlach, near Novocherkassk Hermitage, Petersburg studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/origins/sarmatianhist/sarmatian.qeen.gifCoronet, bowl, jug and needle box from the burial of a Sarmatian queen at Novocherkassk. Gold, with animal style decoration. From the collection of the Hermitage Museum. studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/origins/sarmatianhist/sarmata.pendant.gifSarmatian pendants, with gem stones. Third century, A.D. From the Aktas I. burial in the Alma-Ata district, Kazakhstan. From the collection of the Kazakh Institute of History, Archeology and Ethnography, Alma-Ata. Photo by D. Levy & J. Sackett www.kroraina.com/alan/olhov_7.jpgwww.kroraina.com/alan/olhov_8.jpg"Sarmatian signs" from the North Pontic region (after Solomonik E., 1959) public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sword1.gifScythian/Sarmatian signs inscribed on the golden tip of the hilt of a Sarmatian sword which was discovered in the Roshava Dragana barrow of Bulgaria (Buyukliev 1995: 41, figure 3). This artifact was dated to 1st - 2nd century A.D. ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 5, 2004)---- roksalan.narod.ru/images/sarmat.gifSarmatian Rider mailorderbridepersonals.com/tour/ufa/img/Ufa10.jpgThe "Sarmat Gold", Scytho-Sarmatian 5th-3rd c. BC Ufa, Bashkortostan images.pravda.ru/img/2003/05/Sarmat_Telega.jpggrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/sarm3_m.jpg"Sarmatian Cart" www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00020.jpgVase, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 4th c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00021.jpgBottles and Cups, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 2nd c. BC-1st c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00022.jpgJuf, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 1st-2nd c. AD, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00023.jpgCup, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 1st-2nd c. AD, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00024.jpgwww.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00025.jpgJug, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 1st c. AD, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00026.jpgDouble-handled Jug, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 1st-2nd c. AD, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00027.jpgGolden necklace, earring and rings; Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 1st-3rd c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00028.jpgMedallions, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 2nd c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00029.jpgBrooch, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 2nd half of 1st c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00030.jpgBrooch, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 1st-2nd c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00031.jpgBrooches and collar pins, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 3rd c. BC, Kuban www.kafkasyagrubu.org/resim/kuban_kulturu/kk_00032.jpgNecklace, Maeot-Sarmatian Period, 2nd half of 1st c. BC, Kuban grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/falarpar.jpggrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/falarnb.jpggrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/FALARSAD.JPGSarmatian "Falars" grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/Sarmat2.gifSarmatian golden deer grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/grif2.gifSarmatian golden griffin grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/posuda.gifSarmatian pottery grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/kotel.gifSarmatian cauldron grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/mirror.GIFgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/MIRROR.JPGSarmatian necklace and mirror, Kurgans of Don grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/mechi.gifSarmatian short sword grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/savromat/GLASSES2.JPGgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/savromat/GLASSES.JPGgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/savromat/GLASSES3.JPGSarmatian glassware necklaces grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/plaque.gifSarmatian golden plate grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/knife.gifgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/knife.jpggrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/knife1.jpggrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/knife2.jpgSarmatian knife grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/braslet.gifgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/BRASLET1.JPGgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/BRASLET.JPGSarmatian golden bracelet grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/sad.gifgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SAD.jpggrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SAD2.jpgSarmatian plates grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/necklace.gifgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/NECKLACE.JPGgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/NECKLAC1.JPGSarmatian necklace grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SARM6_S.GIFgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SARM6_M.JPGSarmatian crown, Khokhlach Kurgan grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SARM4_S.GIFgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SARM4_M.JPGSarmatian torque, Khokhlach Kurgan grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SARM5_M.JPGgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/SARM5_S.GIFSarmatian cup from Sosud grants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/flakon.gifgrants.rsu.ru/osi/Don_NC/Ancient/Earliron/Sarmats/FLAKON.JPGSarmatian "Flakon" ---------------- (Originially posted by Rava at November 5, 2004)---- Great work... ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 5, 2004)---- Thanks, I'll post some more stuff ---------------- (Originially posted by me at November 9, 2004)---- zion.kerekes.elte.hu/bundi/muzej/images/all_kiall/megorzott1.jpgzion.kerekes.elte.hu/bundi/muzej/images/all_kiall/megorzott2.jpgSarmatian jewels from Páka, Kiskunfélegyháza, Hungary www.members.tripod.com/dacians1/ospreyh.gifHelmets from different peoples (H is Sarmatian) pages.sssnet.com/7genex7/w2image.gifSarmatian queen buried in barrow grave at Khokhlach, Novacherkassk. Decorations on the dress: stitched on gold plaques pages.sssnet.com/7genex7/c2image.gifCat talisman, Sauromatian/Sarmatian carving www.mfm.u-szeged.hu/pics/szamoca.jpgSarmatian vase, Hungary www.romanofficer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/roamzarmor8.jpgSarmatian Apron Applique‚ Tip Earrings www.romanofficer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/roamzarmor11.jpgSarmatian Woman's Earrings www.vzmakh.ru/parabellum/image/p180801.gifSarmatian Cataphracts www.ancientworlds.net/aworlds_media/ibase_1/00/03/27/00032776_000.jpgCover of Osprey's "The Sarmatians", showing Sarmatian Cataphracts www.ancientworlds.net/aworlds_media/ibase_1/00/01/15/00011508_320.gifSarmatian Cataphract on the logo of the "Lords of the Plains" site rubens.anu.edu.au/raider5/hungary/budapest/museums/hungarian_national_museum/hungary/carparthian_archaeology/germans_sarmatians/Sarmatian finds in the Hungarian National Museum www.kladoiskatel.ru/relic/finds/mirror.jpgSarmatian mirrors www.kladoiskatel.ru/relic/finds/pryasl.jpgSarmatian finds www.kladoiskatel.ru/relic/finds/knife.jpgSarmatian knife www.kladoiskatel.ru/relic/finds/key.jpgSarmatian key
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Post by Rava on Dec 15, 2004 12:31:37 GMT 3
Once I wrote that in context of possessions placed northwest of Sogd, Weilue mentioned two countries or tribes by names Su-te and Wen-ne-sha. Initially I thought that the expression concerned general term Czudy using by Slavs to describe any ugro-finnic tribe in their sorrounding, now I think it concerned rather Sudovians /known in archeology as the Sudovian Culture/. My point is that it seems that in light of other chinese sources the possesions of Aorsi and/or Alans confederacy reached far northwest to the Baltic Sea. Another interesting point is that the term Aorsi is hard to translate in any of iranic languages. However there was an old polish word ors, orsz meaning horse. If we assume that the word Aorsi meant Horses what about so called Hun Horse Tribes ? Have you got any information about this tribe?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 15, 2004 20:41:44 GMT 3
What's the Latin name for those "Hun Horse Tribes?"
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Post by Rava on Dec 16, 2004 20:34:02 GMT 3
I found this name in one of Wikipedia's articles: With the exception of the 43-118 AD "North-South" feud, the Hun dynasty survived as a fairly tightly-knit political power until the 4th C. when the Nu (Å«) tribes decisively threw off the yoke of the Xiong dynasty. Whether increasing squabbling amongst the Xiong dynasty caused their subjects to lose faith in them, or some other cause occurred, Hun unity came to an end. The rock was shattered and clans claiming the Hun name (Hunnoi, Chionites, Choni, Xiong, etc.) dispersed as nothing more than piratical raiding bands. They appear south in Persia (the Xiyon camel tribes ¨C Chionites ¨C in AD 320, also known as Red Huns), while a portion remained east in China (the Xiong deer people), and finally in one last brilliant flare west in Russia (the Hun horse tribes in AD 360).
It's the only one source which uses this particular name in the Net. Never met this?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 16, 2004 20:44:29 GMT 3
It's strange that it classifies Xiong and Nu as different tribes whereas the Xiongnu were a united people (I mean the real Xiongnu people which ruled over many subject peoples also called Xiongnu). I never heard those Hunnic Horse Tribes before
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Lannes
Tarqan
Da kine
Posts: 68
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Post by Lannes on Dec 24, 2004 22:25:07 GMT 3
Well, the claim actually has to do with the contus being adopted in addition to the heavy panolpy do to the use of the long xyston(or in some cases, people claim the adoption of the contos was inspired to deal with the infantry sarissa). Therefore, the claim has nothing to do with the amount of armour, but rather, it has to do with the introduction of the lance into the heavy cavalry's weaponry.
Just to note, there were more than Sarmatian tribes. For example: There was a tribe known as the Saii that lived in southwestern Ukraine who received tribute from Olbia (Olbia was the place that Alexander's general, Zopyrion, had tried to capture, but was defended by the Scythians as Temujin mentioned earlier), the Basileans that lived between Bessarabia and the lower Danube, and the Iaxamatae(or Ixibitai) who lived near the Sea of Azov.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Apr 6, 2008 12:30:10 GMT 3
Could you please put some sources here about Hun horse Tribes, and the linguistical proof claiming the relation between Polish Ors Orsz and the name Aorsi?
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Post by Alanus on Apr 26, 2010 2:29:46 GMT 3
(Originially posted by Temujin on November 1, 2004) "I have no idea about their religious believes, but I know it was very similar to Scythian believe. and of course there was also the famous sword as god of war worshipping. Attila has been said to have found the sword of mars (the god of war). I've thougth about that for a while, and by comparing it to the Arthur legend with excalibur i think it could have been a political move. by claiming the sword of the wargod one could claim overlordship over the Indo-iranian subjects of the Huns (and probably over the Steppe-dwellers in general). the king of a steppe confederation was also its military commander and by doing the sword ceremony he could gain legitimation as sole ruler (iirc Attila unfiied Huns)." Hello, Temujin Maybe this can help. The sword ceremony is but one of the Sarmatian rituals. They also believed in an animal pantheon that included deer (white ones), birds, wolves, bears, goats (ibex?), and gryphons. Traces of the narcotic hauma (like soma) have been found in their cult vessels (which appear to be the "original" Grails). This was probably mixed with a kumiss beater. The sacred place appears to be "white mountain," perhaps the ancestral "homeland," also known as "dream-land" in Alanic legends. Of various rituals, we know most about the "sword in the stones." However, the Attila and Arthur stories are just that-- "stories," legendary. A real, documented, connection appears when the small steppe tribe of Taifali joined the Goths in the late 2nd century. After the western Goths received the sword ceremony from the Taifals, they gave themselves the designation of "Tyrfingi," or "people of the sword." The sword was called "Tyrfing," aka "the sword of Tyr," a very early Germanic god. Tales of the Sword Tyrfing were included in the Hervar Saga, in the old Icelandic Edda. So we know that the warriors, enmass, worshiped a sword planted upright in the ground or upon a mundus of rocks. Not just the king was involved. This ceremony likely followed the Equites Taifali into Britain, c. 396, and probably accounts for the famous Arthurian episode. The cultic Alanic/Taifali hauma vessels and ritual may account for the Holy Grail. These two Sarmatian/Alanic rituals show the steppe influence upon extreme Western Europe. The Alans were relocated by Roman administrators around Orleans (AD 407) and the Taifals near Nantes in AD 395-400. Other "Arthurian" connections may exist-- such as Layamon's "Argante. This is similar to "Argantyr," a male version in the Hervar Saga, possibly as a female "Aryante" as the Lady of the Lake... who quite likely may have been none other than the Golden Man of Issyk (who was more accurately a high warrior priestess, not a pubescent young man). The Lady of the Lake taught martial arts to Lancelot and Arthur. The high warrior priestess did the same. The Lady of the Lake lived in a palace under the lake's surface. The only lake that has a "palace" under its surface is Issyk Kul. The Lady of the Lake lived (alternatively) "in a rock," which I believe would be the entombment in the satellite Issyk kurgan of the Golden Man. The connections between steppe cultures and dark age Europe were many. Alanus
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Post by Temüjin on May 2, 2010 23:37:11 GMT 3
After the western Goths received the sword ceremony from the Taifals, they gave themselves the designation of "Tyrfingi," or "people of the sword." what's actually your source on that?
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Post by Alanus on May 6, 2010 5:54:44 GMT 3
After the western Goths received the sword ceremony from the Taifals, they gave themselves the designation of "Tyrfingi," or "people of the sword." what's actually your source on that? For which? The Goths calling themselves the Tyrfingi? Or their adoption of the "Sarmatian" sword ceremony from the Taifali? The first goes without question: the Gothic word "Tyrfingi" translates to "people of the sword." (see Wolfram) The second can be debabted. Like, where did the sword ceremony come from? The Taifali were first recorded with the Tyrfingi as their horse in 247, and they rode for these western Goths for 7 more generations. Plenty of time there for cultural exchange, including religious ceremony. (If you're a Goth, and you're surrounded by steppe people worshiping swords, where do think the hint might come from? Upper Barvaria?) The Taifali remained with the Tyrfingi until 378 when they were not allowed to cross the Danube by the Romans. They then joined the Greutungi, were defeated in 379, and removed to the Po Valley enmass. My premise is the ceremony came from the Taifali, not the Barvarians. see: Hist. August., sorry. can't recall the page Genethalius, Max, 17,1 Eutropius, Brev., 8,2.2 Ammianus, XXXI, 9,4 Bury, Later Roman Empire, pp 41-42 The actual named sword-- Tyrfing-- goes on and on, and it's even in the old Icelandic Edda, in the Hervar Saga. (Just joking. I don't think the sword was ever worshiped in Barvaria.)
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Post by Temüjin on May 10, 2010 22:44:44 GMT 3
they called themselves Terwingi and not Tyrfingi. and the Goths had the slavic word for sword, according to Sarmat, hence that makes no sense. is there actually any mention that Goths had the sword worship? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifalsinteresting that they had a blue wolf on their shield...
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 12, 2010 13:26:55 GMT 3
Oh that's very interesting
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