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Post by Temüjin on Feb 1, 2007 22:32:20 GMT 3
So under your logic, there were Swiss people before the forming of the Swiss confederations. Or Iraqi people before the forming of Iraq. British people before the forming of Great Britain. That is just silly man. Of course there were people before the formation of the alliances, but that doesn't mean their group name existed before the alliances were made. Your so called Turkic people were just bands and bands of nomadic steppe tribes, the only thing they shared amongst each other was their pagan religion. You think that the steppe people were mono-lingual or uniform in nature, that is an incorrect assumption. yes of course there were Swiss before the creation of switzerland and so on, or do you think there were no Slovaks before the separation of Czechoslovakia or no Ukrainians before the end of the Soviet Union?. afterall those countries would not have formed if their nationality would not exist. there is a falacity in your own logic, Britain, Switzerland and Iraq ar all multi-ethnic countries and not single ethnic ones like those i mentioned. Britains consist of Scots, English, Welsh and those are all "races" as you called it. all those people simply do not appear out of the nothing. or do you think Kurds do not exist? we must differ between names for groups and for real people.
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Post by altaicmongol on Feb 1, 2007 22:59:31 GMT 3
So under your logic, there were Swiss people before the forming of the Swiss confederations. Or Iraqi people before the forming of Iraq. British people before the forming of Great Britain. That is just silly man. Of course there were people before the formation of the alliances, but that doesn't mean their group name existed before the alliances were made. Your so called Turkic people were just bands and bands of nomadic steppe tribes, the only thing they shared amongst each other was their pagan religion. You think that the steppe people were mono-lingual or uniform in nature, that is an incorrect assumption. yes of course there were Swiss before the creation of switzerland and so on, or do you think there were no Slovaks before the separation of Czechoslovakia or no Ukrainians before the end of the Soviet Union?. afterall those countries would not have formed if their nationality would not exist. there is a falacity in your own logic, Britain, Switzerland and Iraq ar all multi-ethnic countries and not single ethnic ones like those i mentioned. Britains consist of Scots, English, Welsh and those are all "races" as you called it. all those people simply do not appear out of the nothing. or do you think Kurds do not exist? we must differ between names for groups and for real people. Well, there you go. GokTurks were just like the Swiss and British, an alliance of many ethnicities and tribes. Maybe German wasn't a good example, but hell, you just provided me with a better example.
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Post by Verinen Paroni on Feb 1, 2007 23:32:47 GMT 3
Swiss people are from Romanized Celts and Germanics (French), Bavarian tribes (Germans), Langobards (Northern-Italians) and some Retoromans.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 2, 2007 0:20:12 GMT 3
Member altaicmongol has been banned because of insulting me and many other members.
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Post by unitedfront on Feb 2, 2007 0:50:14 GMT 3
hmm I allways thought they got assimelated into the Turkic population earlier how do you explain the "mixed" bodies in the Kurgan graves? "Mixed bodies" - this is easy. Conquerors were always interested in women of the conquered ones ;D But Altaicmongol is subjective when he sais that Genghis-khan completed the ethnogenesis of Altaic people instead of Indo-Europeans in CA. This must have happened earlier (after distruction of Gok Turk khaganate), and in Transoxiana after destruction of Iranic Samanides (which happened before Genghis-khan) Actually, it's very well documented that the main factor of the changing demographic of Central Asia was Genghis Khan. "Following Arab incursions into the region, Islam supplanted Buddhism and other religions in Central Asia (such as Nestorian Christianity), while local Iranian languages survived into the next 2nd millennium. What drastically changed the demographics of Central Asia was the invasion of the Mongols led by Genghis Khan in the 13th century. Numerous native populations were wiped out by the Mongols and a process of population replacement began in earnest. During this period numerous Turkic tribes began to migrate and ultimately replace many of the Iranian peoples who were largely killed, absorbed by larger Turkic-Mongol groups, and/or pushed further south and Central Asia came to be known as Turkestan. Much of modern Uzbekistan took shape during the reign of Tamerlane, a prominent Turkic-Mongol conqueror who reigned over a vast empire from his capital at Samarkand. Later, between the 15th and 16th centuries, various nomadic tribes arrived from the steppes including the Kipchaks, Naymans, Kanglis, Kungrats, Manġits and others and these tribes were led by Muhammad Shaybani who was the Khan of the Uzbeks. This period marked the beginnings of the modern Uzbek nationality and formation of an Uzbek state in what is today Uzbekistan, as these tribes were the first to use the name 'Uzbek'. So powerful was this early Uzbek state that it challenged much larger empires, the Safavids and Mughals, for control over Khorasan and Afghanistan." Allworth, Edward. The Modern Uzbeks: From the 14th Century to the Present, Hoover Institution Press (July, 1990). When the Turks invaded Central Asia, they lived in coexistence with the Sogdians. The Iranic culture and language survived for a long time even with the Turks as their overlords. They only started to become extinct in many parts of CA with the incursions of Genghis Khan.
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Post by Atabeg on Feb 2, 2007 1:27:17 GMT 3
"Mixed bodies" - this is easy. Conquerors were always interested in women of the conquered ones ;D But Altaicmongol is subjective when he sais that Genghis-khan completed the ethnogenesis of Altaic people instead of Indo-Europeans in CA. This must have happened earlier (after distruction of Gok Turk khaganate), and in Transoxiana after destruction of Iranic Samanides (which happened before Genghis-khan) Actually, it's very well documented that the main factor of the changing demographic of Central Asia was Genghis Khan. "Following Arab incursions into the region, Islam supplanted Buddhism and other religions in Central Asia (such as Nestorian Christianity), while local Iranian languages survived into the next 2nd millennium. What drastically changed the demographics of Central Asia was the invasion of the Mongols led by Genghis Khan in the 13th century. Numerous native populations were wiped out by the Mongols and a process of population replacement began in earnest. During this period numerous Turkic tribes began to migrate and ultimately replace many of the Iranian peoples who were largely killed, absorbed by larger Turkic-Mongol groups, and/or pushed further south and Central Asia came to be known as Turkestan. Much of modern Uzbekistan took shape during the reign of Tamerlane, a prominent Turkic-Mongol conqueror who reigned over a vast empire from his capital at Samarkand. Later, between the 15th and 16th centuries, various nomadic tribes arrived from the steppes including the Kipchaks, Naymans, Kanglis, Kungrats, Manġits and others and these tribes were led by Muhammad Shaybani who was the Khan of the Uzbeks. This period marked the beginnings of the modern Uzbek nationality and formation of an Uzbek state in what is today Uzbekistan, as these tribes were the first to use the name 'Uzbek'. So powerful was this early Uzbek state that it challenged much larger empires, the Safavids and Mughals, for control over Khorasan and Afghanistan." Allworth, Edward. The Modern Uzbeks: From the 14th Century to the Present, Hoover Institution Press (July, 1990). When the Turks invaded Central Asia, they lived in coexistence with the Sogdians. The Iranic culture and language survived for a long time even with the Turks as their overlords. They only started to become extinct in many parts of CA with the incursions of Genghis Khan. and you think this is a good thing?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Feb 2, 2007 1:34:30 GMT 3
What the hell is he doing here? He has been banned already. Any extra accounts made by him will be banned as well.
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Post by Temüjin on Feb 2, 2007 17:50:13 GMT 3
Swiss people are from Romanized Celts and Germanics (French), Bavarian tribes (Germans), Langobards (Northern-Italians) and some Retoromans. more precisely: the French part are Burgundians, the German speaking part are Alemanic/Swabian Germans, the Italian (Lombard) parts were ceded from Milan when they were allies as a gift in support for a war. the Räto-romans are Romanized Celts (Helvetians), which have not been assimilated by the Alemanics/Swabians. those are the four people of Switzerland.
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Post by tongduurai on Jul 25, 2008 21:55:19 GMT 3
Swiss people are from Romanized Celts and Germanics (French), Bavarian tribes (Germans), Langobards (Northern-Italians) and some Retoromans. Actually, the Swiss are originally from a people called the Rhaetians who spoke a Non-IndoEuropean language similar to Etruscan. The Celts and Teutons came later.
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Post by Temüjin on Jul 28, 2008 20:39:02 GMT 3
Raetians are later than Celts, Celts were native to this region and Raetians only moved in 800BC and mostly into Tyrolia.
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