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Post by ALTAR on Oct 3, 2008 13:04:18 GMT 3
Ah that explains a lot. My maternal side of the family have always apeared to have been more influenced by Arab/Persian cultures. My mother comes from a family of very tall people 6 foot+, who have long faces and aquiline noses. That is totally different to my paternall side, my granfather was only 5.7feet tall but he was a very skilled rider ;D. He was also the bravest man in norhtern Pakistans patowar area, he killed 26 japanese soldiers and captured 100 others in close combat almost single handedly in the battle of kohima in India. His name was Alpdeen Sabir Hussain. He did not survive the war, his brother was handed a potumous george cross. Jimir Feroz khan was my great uncle who looked after my father and arranged him to be sent to england. Nice to have a family which is full of heroes. Do you have links with Pashtuns Gılzai, Khilji or Abdali clans ?
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Post by mongol194 on Oct 3, 2008 14:37:34 GMT 3
Yes My Grandfather was Pashtun his ancestors stayed in india when ahmed sha the Abdali launched his fifth invasion. Trouble is we were nearly overran by sikhs but we fought them alongside british troops. we originally used to fight both of them but the sikhs offered us peshawar in return for our aid, whilst the british would give us total autonomy so we joined them!
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Post by ALTAR on Oct 3, 2008 17:00:24 GMT 3
In many resources, some Pashtun tribes were descended from Khalaj Turks such as I mentioned Khilji and Gilzai.
There are also some sub-clans of Gilzai are still named in Turkish(Khotak, Enderi, Burta, Turan vs). Bu they are assimilated by Pashtuns in race-mixing, culture and language.
Abdali and Zaboli tribes were also related with Hephtalites.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 3, 2008 20:07:03 GMT 3
That is a quite interesting story indeed
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Oct 4, 2008 2:46:57 GMT 3
What is it about Zaboli tribe?
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Post by ALTAR on Oct 4, 2008 10:34:33 GMT 3
What is it about Zaboli tribe? Zabol is a region where is in the east of Kabil. The people who are living at there named Zaboli. Sultan Mahmoud of Ghazni's mother was from Zaboli.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 5, 2008 0:15:01 GMT 3
In Greek sources, the region is mentioned as Arakhōsia Άραχώσια while the Arabs and Iranians called the region as Zâbulistân ﺰﺍﺒﻠﺴﺘﺎﻦ.
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Post by mongol194 on Oct 6, 2008 15:52:51 GMT 3
By the way i'm just writing an interesting Essay in the use of transoxianian merceneries in the dark ages. I have a feeling that one warrior of particular note may be of turkic origin...... Does the name Hurr, Hur, Herh.....not sure on pronunciation mean anything in turkic? The manuscripts i'm using are Indian and written in Urdu so it could be an arab name but i doubt it becuase Arabs rarely use the letter "U" with an "R", anyhow the name would sound more like Hoor. But this name i think is more guttural and throatier than Arab lingo Also Hurr could be a sassanid word but i'd just check to see if it means anything in turkic or tartar lingo.If hurr meant warrior or swordsman then i'd be happy becuase it would solve a little historical riddle as to just when the first turkic mercenaries appeared!
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 6, 2008 15:56:25 GMT 3
Well some Arabic sources mention a Turkic title in the form of Hurtakîn, which might be the rendering of Kür Tigin or Köl Tigin.
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Post by mongol194 on Oct 6, 2008 16:22:08 GMT 3
Hmmm............ what does Hur-tigin or kol-tigin mean or roughly translate to, sorry for my lack of knowledge on turkic names and the lingo and all
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Oct 6, 2008 16:58:44 GMT 3
is the title Beg related with Baǧ, which is a very old word?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 7, 2008 1:11:55 GMT 3
Kür Tigin would mean "Powerful Prince", similar to the Qara Kitan title Gür Qan (Powerful Ruler). Kür means "abundant", symbolizing power, but the real word for "power" is Küč (Küch, also passed to Mongolian). "Powerful" is actually Küčlüg, but there are occasions when Kür is also used for it.
If you translate Köl Tigin directly, it would be "Lake Prince" in English (the reading Kül Tigin, which would mean nothing in Turkic except "Ash Prince", is prooven to be inaccurate). Köl means "Lake" (passed to Mongolian, used as Gol for "river"), and it symbolizes having a vast mind which is like a big lake collecting vast amounts of water. This is similar to the Mongol useage of the word Dalai, meaning "Ocean", also representing the entire World (the Tibetan title Dalai Lama comes from here).
Even though they look similar, this similarity is probably only a coincidence, they are not related. The Turkic title Bäg (varieties including Beg, Bek, Beğ, Bey, Biy, etc), as Sadri Maksudi Arsal first claimed, probably comes from the Turkic word Bäk- (Bek-) meaning "to wait (on something to protect)", which also survives in the Turkish word Bekçi (Bäkči) meaning "keeper".
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Oct 7, 2008 15:05:58 GMT 3
What is the meaning of the "Beg" in modern Turkish and ancient Turkic?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 8, 2008 0:05:55 GMT 3
There are several different meanings and useages of this common word. It originially meant "chieftain", but during the Celestial Turk period (6th-8th centuries), it was used for everyone who had an administrative title. So it had both a narrow and a wide meaning at that time. After that period, we see that many local rulers in Turkistan, be it Iranic or Turkic (mostly Turkic), or some rulers of bigger peoples (ot just small tribes) used this title in a very similar context to the Medieval Russian useage of the title Knjaz' Князь (Knez), Medieval Chinese useage of the title Wáng 王 and the Islamic useage of the Arabic title Amîr أمير, which all have a meaning soewhere between "Lord" and "Prince" in English. Indeed, the Codex Cumanicus gives the meaning "Prince" for that title used by the Qïpčaqs. During the Seljuqid, Turkmen Principalities and Ottoman periods, it was used mostly as an administrative title, without much changes in the meaning. These Western Turkmen states used that title both for tribal chieftains, provincial administrators and central burocrats. In Modern Turkish, the word survives as a term of respect, similar to the Japanese "-san", but sometimes it's also used by wives to refer to their husbands (this useage can be traced back to the 11th century, as it's recorded in the Dîwânu Luġât al-Turk دﻴﻮﺍﻦ ﻠﻎﺎﺖ اﻠﺘﺮﻚ).
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Post by ALTAR on Oct 8, 2008 13:34:24 GMT 3
In Modern Turkish we used Beg(Bey) as the same meanin with Mr. in English.
Ex: Azadan Bey = Mr. Azadan
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