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Post by Turan on Aug 22, 2016 9:03:37 GMT 3
Most people especially Turks claim they became muslim freely. But is there a reason why? I dont see a reason why the Turks(Huns,Mongols, Turkics etc. etc.) would suddenly drop Tengriism(shamanism) and convert to Islam.
As far as I know Turks back then were people who strongly defended their religion and culture.
And who were these Turks actually? Would we still call them Huns from that period of time? Did it happen between 500-600 AD ?
I am pretty sure they converted because of politicial issues or somehow to get gold(or whatever they wanted back then). But I am curious what the exact problem was.
Internet is sadly full of lies. Muslims claim that the Turks saw this awesome religion and they instantly converted. Which I dont believe at all.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 23, 2016 2:37:28 GMT 3
Contrary to the popular belief, the Islamisation of Turks was a slow process that spanned over several centuries, occuring on a vast territory. Although we know some individual conversions in the 7th-9th centuries, mass conversions did not start until the mid-10th century. The earliest Turkic peoples and empires that faced the Muslim invasions and raids, such as the Khazars, Türgish, Oghuz (pre-Seljuk) and Qarluq, resisted Islam for quite a long time - around two centuries to be exact. From the first time ever the Muslims reached Oxus and Caucasia, it took two long centuries for Islam to be finally start being accepted by the Turkic peoples. The two earliest Turkic states that converted to Islam with large proportions of their populations were the Volga Bulghars and the Qarakhanids; Islam spread among the Volga Bulghars as a result of the missionary activities of Khwarazmian merchants and the earliest Muslim rulers of the Qarakhanid Empire, such as Satuq Bughra Khan and his successors, forced their subjects to embrace this religion, very similar to the way how Christianity spread among the Germanic, Slavic and Baltic peoples of Early Medieval Europe. Ibn Fadhlan tells us that a part of the Volga Bulghar population, including their ruler with the title Iltäbär, had become Muslims by the year 922, but most of the Volga Bulghars still retained their original beliefs. Similarly, Islam was spreading among the Khazars during the 9th-10th centuries as a result of Khwarazmian merchants, but it wasn't accepted by the entire Khazar population. When the Qarakhanids converted to Islam during the 940s, they waged a long holy war against their cousins, the Buddhist Uyghurs of Qocho (Turfan), but they failed to conquer this kingdom and convert its population.
On the other hand, along the Transoxianian frontier, during the decentralisation and dissolution of the Abbasid Caliphate, the Oghuz and Qarluq continued to resist and Abbasids and their Samanid successors for a while. However, soon the Qarluqs were absorbed by the Qarakhanids and they became Muslims. Meanwhile, Muslim Iranic and newly-converted Turkic dervish missionaries started gathering in the ribat frontier fortresses of Transoxiana and they used these fortresses as bases for their missionary activities among the Oghuz. An important number of the Oghuz converted to Islam under the influences of these dervishes, but in order to gain the attention of Turkic nomads, these dervishes used heterodox ways and introduced a very vague, semi-shamanist version of Islam heavily mixed with ancient Turkic beliefs. This is why the nomadic Oghuz who converted to Islam were barely Muslims at all, and they knew very few of their new religion; they were Muslims in name only, and continued practicing most of their customs. A similar case also happened in the Qarakhanid lands; Muslim Turkic scholars and missionaries such as Khoja Ahmad Yasawi are traditionally attributed with introducing a Turkic-friendly version of Islam among the Turkic peoples of the Qarakhanid Empire. Regarding the Oghuz again, this tendency of using heterodox ways continued among the Oghuz-Turkmen for many centuries and it still continues today; while the sedentary, urban Oghuz-Turkmen were better educated at the customs and practices of the orthodox versions of Islam, nomadic and newly-sedentarised Oghuz-Turkmens preserved most of their ancient customs. The birth of Qizilbash-Alevi beliefs among the Anatolian Yörüks of the early 16th century, which actually goes back to the Babai Rebellion against the Anatolian Seljuks in the 1240s, were very heterodox and syncretic versions of this religion. But contrary to popular belief, it wasn't only the Qizilash-Alevi-Bektashi who preserved the ancient Turkic beliefs (also contrary to popular belief, the Alevi faith has incorporated many pre-Turkic Anatolian, Iranian, Christian and Indian beliefs among itself), but also the so-called Sunni Turks of the countryside either living as Yörük nomads or residing in villages as newly sedentarised ex-nomads.
Also, similar to what happened among the Volga Bulghars, Muslim merchants travelling among the Oghuz were also influential in converting them to Islam. Missionary activities and trade contributed to the conversion of the Oghuz, but these conversions rocketed high when Seljuk Beg himself also converted to Islam at the city of Jand in order to gain the support of Muslim ghazi frontier warriors in his fight against his archenemy, the Yabghu ruler of the Oghuz. The nomadic Oghuz who joined Seljuk Beg's cause and became the early Seljukids were either already newly-converted Muslims, or they converted upon joining the Seljukid ranks. This is why some of the Oghuz stayed away from Islam and never converted to this religion, becoming the ancestors of the Orthodox Christian Gagauz Turks. Islamisation of the Turkic peoples continued in the following centuries; Islam was spreading among the Qipchaqs by the 11th century but it was very slow, and it only started speeing up after the conversion of the Golden Horde ruler Berke Khan in the mid-13th century. In the East, the Uyghurs succesfully resisted Islamisation until the 14th-15th centuries, when the Muslim Chaghataid khans finally forced their Uyghur subjects to convert to this religion. The Kyrgyz also converted to Islam only after their migrations to their current lands; those that stayed in southern Siberia and today called Khakass never embraced Islam. The various Tatar groups, Bashkurts, Kazakhs and Uzbeks were also already Muslim when they broke away from the Golden Horde, or converted gradually in this process. Those non-Muslims among these peoples converted in time; for example, missionaries from Kazan were very influential in the conversion of some Kazakhs. However, the Islamisation of the Turkic peoples was never complete, and there are numerous non-Muslim Turkic peoples in Siberia and China.
One final thing; the main theory among the conservative-nationalists in Turkey claiming that the Turks converted to Islam only because their beliefs were similar is mostly nonsense. Even though it is true that Turkic beliefs share some similar customs and ways with Islam, it also shares some similarities with many other religions, and it also has many differences with Islam, which actually made it very difficult for the Turks to learn and embrace this religion. The Islamisation of Turkic peoples is a very difficult subject and this incident, or more correctly incidents, can not be explained with just one reason.
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Post by Turan on Aug 23, 2016 14:12:21 GMT 3
I understand your finaly point of view.
Its difficult to find a 100% answer to this. Because pro muslims will give a soft answer like people converted by themselfs.
If im using logic sense the only reason what I can find is that the Turkic tribes did it for money/material or to get something they want. Or that they have been forced on after defeats.
But I dont call the Turkic people losing to Arabs. Especially with the Turkic style of combat, i would guess that they would rarely lose vs Arabic way of war.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 24, 2016 15:15:14 GMT 3
There wereactually a few times Turks were defeated by the Arabs, but Turkic victories over the Arabs were much more in number. In the 8th century, the Turko-Arabic frontiers were fixed at the Caucasian Mountains and the River Jaxartes (Sayhun); the following two centuries saw both sides crossing to the other side and raiding, sometimes launching rather big invasions, but usually with no definite results. For example, the Türgish invaded Transoxiana and captured some important cities, but they were defeated and forced to evacuate the region. Similarly, the Umayyads crossed Jaxartes before this Türgish invasion, but they were badly beaten in the steppes of modern southern Kazakhstan and they were forced to withdraw back to Transoxiana while suffering heavy casualties. The Umayyads also won a victory over the Khazars in the early Khazar-Arab wars, captured the Khazar capital and forced the Khazar qaghan to convert to Islam, but upon their withdrawal, the Khazar qaghan abandoned his new religion and hostilities continued for several more decades. There was also a Khazar invasion of Abbasid lands in Caucasia, Armenia and Iraq in the early years of the Abbasid caliphate, but the Khazars were finally forced to withdraw back to their homeland after capturing some key cities in the region. The 9th century saw no or little action in the Caucasian front, and in Transoxiana, the Samanids (vassals and successors of the Abbasids in the region) fought a rather slow frontier war against the Oghuz and Qarluqs. All these fighting factions usually crossed the frontiers and raided across enemy territory but withdrew without much gains. However, the Samanids wonone significant victory over the Qarluqs as a Samanid ruler crossed the Jaxartes, captured the Qarluq capital and converted its temple to a mosque. The Samanids did not stay in the region for long, but it is not surprising that with the Qarluqs badly defeated by the Samanids, soon the Qarakhanids originally centered at Kashghar crossed the Tianshan (Tengri Mountains) and conquered modern southern Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan inhabited by various Turkic peoples such as the Qarluqs, Chigils, Arghu, etc. You can read more about these Turkic-Arab and Turkic-Muslim wars in Hakkı Dursun Yıldız's book Türkler ve İslamiyet, in which he narrates all these wars in detail. Similarly, İbrahim Kafesoğlu also gives detailed descriptions of these wars in hs book Türk Millî Kültürü. There is also another book, written by Hamilton Alexander Rosskeen Gibb in English and later translated to Turkish. It's title in English is The Arab Conquests in Central Asia and you can freely access and download it from here: archive.org/details/arabconquestsinc00gibbuoft . The book's Turkish translation has the title Orta Asya'da Arap Fetihleri.
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