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Post by ancalimon on Nov 21, 2012 17:55:49 GMT 3
So you are certain that there were no "Og" people back then who were later called Oghuz and Ogur ?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 22, 2012 11:21:06 GMT 3
Yes I am certain. Both Oghuz and Oghur are the same word which is an Old Turkic political term used for unions of tribes who gathered for a common political purpose (primarily to fight against a common powerful enemy). Oghuz derives from Oq meaning "Arrow", a designation for "Tribe" - in fact, arrows were signs of vassalage among the ancient Turkic peoples while the bow was a symbol of authority. Osman Turan once wrote a good article about this issue: www.ttk.org.tr/index.php?Page=DergiIcerik&IcerikNo=1913
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Post by massaget on Nov 23, 2012 13:45:31 GMT 3
Ihsan : oq is arrow, thats ok, but what is -ur ? For example at the case of onogur, its said to be match with ten arrows tribe, but the tribe is -gur, not -ur isnt it ?
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Post by ancalimon on Nov 23, 2012 14:35:46 GMT 3
Ihsan : oq is arrow, thats ok, but what is -ur ? For example at the case of onogur, its said to be match with ten arrows tribe, but the tribe is -gur, not -ur isnt it ? Gur or ogur or guz or oguz are Most probably plural (in a collective sense) versions of Oq.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 23, 2012 17:01:39 GMT 3
In Old Turkic, the plurality suffixes were -s, -sh, -z, -n, -t and -lar/lär. In the R-Dialect spoken by the Oghur tribes in the west, this -z suffix became -r so Oghuz became Oghur. The change from Oq- to Ogh- is something to do with the spoken language that happened in the course of centuries; in fact, there are many cases of Old Turkic q becoming gh and kh.
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Post by massaget on Nov 23, 2012 18:08:00 GMT 3
Hm. So the türkish name Hakan is just a different form of the word Khagan ?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 24, 2012 17:56:52 GMT 3
Indeed. Old Turkic Qaghan was written as Khāqān by the Arabs and Persians; when the Turks adopted the Arabic script, they continued to write this title in the Arabic way, even though Qaghan survived well into the 14th-15th centuries thanks to the continued usage of the Uyghur script.
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Post by massaget on Nov 24, 2012 21:14:23 GMT 3
If Magyar would be a türkic name, what would it mean, is it close to anything meaningful ?
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Post by ancalimon on Nov 25, 2012 2:03:53 GMT 3
If Magyar would be a türkic name, what would it mean, is it close to anything meaningful ? If it is Turkic, it should be a tribe name just like Ogur. The M could have been P or B. So my guess would have been something like: bajar(reliable, holy, honest tribe)
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Post by massaget on Nov 25, 2012 4:42:45 GMT 3
There are theories that Magyar is matching with Bashkar.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 25, 2012 5:56:56 GMT 3
So my guess would have been something like: bajar(reliable, holy, honest tribe) Could not be. The name originally had no vowel harmony. Anonymous writes "Moger". Apparently he's not the only one to write the ethnonym with a front vowel in the second syllable. One way to explain this is to say that the ethnonym is made up of two different words.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 25, 2012 6:08:08 GMT 3
There are theories that Magyar is matching with Bashkar. Yea, apparently the name Bashkirt was applied to Hungarians. I haven't read why Bashkirt changed into Bashqort. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs#Name
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 25, 2012 14:26:59 GMT 3
If Magyar would be a türkic name, what would it mean, is it close to anything meaningful ? Gyula Németh proposed that Magyar derives from the combination of the ethnonym Mansi and the Turkic word Är ("man"). But I don't know how -n- would turn to -gy-.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 25, 2012 22:05:52 GMT 3
Ihsan,
It was originally an -nch- combination found in other Finno-Ugric languages too. In Hungarian and Permian languages the 'n' got dropped.
Apparently the name "Är" was applied to a group of people in the area around the same time and later Turkic people used that name for the Udmurts. It isn't known whether the Ar people were the same as today's Udmurts.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 26, 2012 2:11:52 GMT 3
I see, thanks
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