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Post by pecheneg on Apr 24, 2012 18:10:54 GMT 3
it is a new trend to create new origins about Turkic/Altaic words...
sevan nisanyan, an armenian, claims that many Turkic words are actually iranian words. such as
"beg, yabgu, tigin, khan/Qaghan, Khatun, shad" etc...
personally, i do not believe these claims, indo-european-centric aryanism now turned their attention to our words.
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 24, 2012 21:08:24 GMT 3
it is a new trend to create new origins about Turkic/Altaic words... sevan nisanyan, an armenian, claims that many Turkic words are actually iranian words. such as "beg, yabgu, tigin, khan/Qaghan, Khatun, shad" etc... personally, i do not believe these claims, indo-european-centric aryanism now turned their attention to our words. When someone shows Turkic origins for these words, he is called a Turkish nationalist as well. It's really weird. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 25, 2012 10:46:50 GMT 3
There are many theories that explain the origins of those words and titles, but one thing is for certain that Shad was an Indo-European borrowing. Yabghu is almost certainly Turkic, so is Beg. Tigin, Qaghan (Khan seems to be a shortened form of Qaghan) and Khatun might be Turkic Mongolic, Iranic or perhaps even Korean (yes, there is a theory that connects Tigin to a Korean word). Khātēn is attested as a word in Soghdian meaning "Woman", but personally I don't know if it derived from Qatun or if Qatun derived from it. Tigin and Qaghan have not been etymologically explained so far, for example if they are indeed Turkic in origin, which "root word" do they derive from and which suffixes they have? Personally I couldn't find an answer to that.
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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 26, 2012 2:51:39 GMT 3
I am not sure about Khatun, but Beg seems to be Indo-European too - at least if it is the same as Baga/Bag/Bay  . Or otherwise there would be two similarly sounding words with almost identical meaning. The problem with these names is that they seem to be shared at least as far as we can trace them back in time. And they've become so neatly naturalized in both language groups, that either etymology seems sometimes equally convincing. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 26, 2012 10:07:04 GMT 3
Even though Old Turkic Bäg looks very similar to Iranic Baġ/Baġa, I don't think Bäg derives from the latter. For example, in the Soghdian Bugut inscription of the 6th century, Gokturk rulers and princes are always refered with the title β'γy in front of their names and imperial titles. However, while it corresponds with the useage of Turkic Täŋri in front of titles, it does not correspond to the useage of Bäg in Old Turkic, as it was used for nobles and title-holders that were not from the imperial A-shi-na dynasty. So, a qaghan or tigin was not a Bäg and remember that in Old Turkic, titles are always placed after adjectives (for example, Bilgä Qaghan "Wise Emperor" or Köl Tigin "Lake Prince"), not the other way around.
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Post by Ardavarz on Apr 28, 2012 1:35:02 GMT 3
I see. I checked the runic inscriptions - indeed Bäg and Bagha were differentiated there and even written differently (because of the different signs used with front and back vowels). Perhaps only Bagha was Iranian and corresponded to Turkic Tängri meaning "lord" or "deity". But this topic with its position before or after the name of the bearer is puzzling. F.e. in the Sassanian inscriptions Middle Persian Bay and Parthian Bagh ("lord") were put before the name of the king, while the title Shāh - after it. However in the Sogdian Manichean texts βγy ("god") is put after the names of the deities. Maybe this was Turkic influence? Also in Proto-Bulgarian there was a peculiar form Bagain - most likely Baga with Slavic suffix -in. Judging from the inscriptions it seems to have been put after the name of the bearer. But still in modern Bulgarian there is a preserved form Bay put before the name and used as familiar addressing toward elder person. But maybe they were not related and have different origins . |
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Post by ancalimon on Apr 28, 2012 5:30:23 GMT 3
Maybe PO is the root. (where was Po Tengri written?)
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Apr 29, 2012 0:16:53 GMT 3
However in the Sogdian Manichean texts βγy ("god") is put after the names of the deities. Maybe this was Turkic influence? It might be. Manichaeist Uyghurs called their sun and moon gods Kün Täŋri and Ay Täŋri while Buddhist Uyghurs called Buddha Burqan Täŋri. The Chinese have recorded that the Gokturks called their sacred mountain, which they reveared as the god of earth, as Bo-deng-ning-li (the spelling varies with each Chinese source), which has the name Täŋri in it. |
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Post by Ardavarz on May 1, 2012 3:18:15 GMT 3
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Post by ancalimon on May 1, 2012 9:36:43 GMT 3
By the way. Today in Turkish we have two words related to this. Bay & Bey
Bay : Bay Ýhsan Erkoç (it means something like Mr. Ýhsan Erkoç)
Bey~Beð : Ýhsan Bey (it also means something like Mr. Ýhsan)
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 1, 2012 14:33:55 GMT 3
The useage of Bay for "Mr." and Bayan for "Ms." was a modern Turkish invention of the Atatürk period. Because Bey and Hanım were used for personal names only during the Ottoman period, there was a need to invent terms that would be used with surnames. During the 1930s, the Old Turkic words Bay and Bayan meaning "Rich" were selected because of that.
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. Or otherwise there would be two similarly sounding words with almost identical meaning.