Iran Turan conflict according to shahname , avesta

[abdulhay]

I wonder if the battles described in the shahname, book of king made by ferdowsi describes a period without any historical recording expect in the avesta, have this conflicts really taken place?

when did afrisiyab live , during which period?

[Ardavarz]

I have wondered about this too.

The problem is that those legends are set on the background of Zoroastrian vision of history in which the advent of the prophet Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) marks beginning of the last era of the world. Thus according to traditional chronology Afrasiab is involved in events occuring from the reign of Shah Menuchehr to the enthroning of Kay Khusrow (son of Siyavosh and Afrasiab's daughter Ferengis), i.e. roughly 500 to 168 years before the birth of Zoroaster. But the time in which the prophet has lived is not known for sure and the data given by the ancient and medieval sources are highly controversial (from 253 years before Alexander to 5000 years before Trojan War).

Still, according to Abu Reyhan Biruni the Khwarezmians (who have derived their royal dynasty from Siyavosh) believed that Kay Khusrow was established on the throne in 1200 B.C.E. This gives a time-frame for the epoch of Afrasiab ca. 1532 - 1200 B.C.E. (like other legendary heroes his lifespan is extended to centuries).

Afrasiab was son of Pesheng (descendant of Tur in 5th generation) and brother to Garsivaz and Agriras. The latter was killed by them, but his son Gopatshah ("King-Lord of Cattle", a half-man half-bull) became ruler of some paradisiac country sometimes identified with the homeland of the Aryans. All this is similar to the Scythian genealogical myth about Targitaos and his three sons as reported by Herodotus. Is it possible then that Afrasiab corresponds to Arpoxais (the second son of Targitaos) in that legend while Kolaxais (forefather of the royal Scythians) is a counterpart of Agriras? Moreover those legendary events are related to the approximately same era - 1000 years before Persian invasion in Scythia under Darius in 513 B.C.E. Thus maybe this tradition indeed commemorates some historical events from the mid-2nd millenium B.C.E. - those tribal conflicts (mentioned by Herodotus) that led to the migration of Scythians from Central Asia to Pontian Steppe, in which case Afrasiab and Garsivaz could have belonged to the Massagets.

From the other hand given the similarity between the legendary biographies of Kay Khusrow and Cyrus (6th century), some of the Persian legends could have had their roots in Scytho-Cimmerian invasion during 7th century B.C.E. even though it was only for 28 years. The "Shahname" epic is based on legends from Sasanian times which could have assimilated and mixed traditions from different eras, so this problem may not have a simple solution.

[abdulhay]

thanks for the feedback, its much clearer now

[abdulhay]

I read that the avesta was written somewhat in 1000 bc ,

[abdulhay]

sorry for replying so many times, I forgott to tell u , in which period did the aryans come to pars region of iran, I read that the arians came to india about 1700 bc -1500 bc to northern india and probably at that point split into two groups , one conquering india the other going to south iran , region of fars or pars,


but this contradicts the other read statment that avesta was written in central asia prior to 1000 bc,

which were I read arians came from northern afghanistan a region called aria, near afghan - turkmen border.

[Ardavarz]

There are different theories about the original land of the Aryans (if such one place has existed at all), many of them inspired by local patriotism.

However it can be said that the split between Iranians and Indo-Aryans has occured before their migration from Central Asia probably somewhen during the first half of 2nd millenium B.C.E. A medieval tradition reported by Biruni also tells that Persians have come from Bactria (Northern Afghanistan) to Fars (Persia). It is believed that the city of Balkh (Bactra) was the capital of Kayanian kings during the time of Zarathustra. But as I said before, it is not sure when Zarathustra has actually lived.

In Avesta are attested two ancient languages - Old Avestan in Gathas - (the Songs of Zarathustra) and New Avestan in so-called Younger Avesta uncluding Yashts (Hymns of the deities), Vendidad (Law against demons) and other surviving parts. Old Avestan is similar in many respects to the Vedic language, however in the Vedas are found some specifically Indian words (including Dravidian loanwords) without counterparts in Avestan, so it is obvious that the Vedas have been composed in Hindustan already. This supports the theory about a preceding split between Aryan tribes before their southward migration. This is reflected also in their respective mythology - Indo-Aryans worshipping the pantheon of Devas (Gods), while the Iranians - that of Asuras/Ahuras (Titans).

It is possible also that Avesta has been written in an archaic sacred language (just as Indian scriptures from later times are still written in Sanskrit), so the age of the Avestan language is not necessarily the age of Avesta itself.

[Ardavarz]

Just to note something that came across my attention regarding the epic tales about Afrasiab and Siyavosh I wrote before.

According to Avestan tradition Siyavosh have founded in Turan the utopian city of Kangha (Kang in "Shahname"). This quite resembles the Kangyu from the Chinese sources often identified with Khwarezm (ruled by Siyavoshid dynasty according to Biruni) which in the time of Mao-Tun (2nd century B.C.E.) was incorporated as western part ("wing") of Xiongnu Empire. Then later we have Kangars - the royal clan of the Pechenegs (= Kängäräs from Orkhon inscriptions). Their original center was around Tashkent ("Stone City", Turk.-Sogd.) or Chach (Hunno-Bulgarian word for "Stone" according to O. Pritsak). Pritsak also thought that the very name "Kangar" was derived from Tocharian word kang - "stone" again (cf. Persian sang). Is it possible then that this was how the Siyavosh' Kangha has begun ca. 1292 B.C.E. (traditional date of Khwarezmian era by Biruni)? And maybe this is related to the origin of Pechenegs - even their very name resembles that of the Afrasiab's father Pesheng.

The comparison of Chachan tamgha of the Siyavosh (in Chinese Jaovu) dinasty reveals similarity with Sarmatian tamghas:
www.transoxiana.org/14/smagulov-demidenko-ancient_chach.html.
And this reminds me about another information given by Biruni - that the Alans (thought to be a Sarmatian tribe) have developed their language from mixture between Khwarezmian and Pecheneg languages (if I remember correctly). This could explain the similarity discovered between modern Ossetian (supposedly descendant of Alanic) and ancient Khwarezmian remnants plus its atypical Altaic-like features (like agglutinative declension and some grammatical constructions similar to those in Turkic languages).

[abdulhay]

mamnun aghaye ardavarz, translation, grateful for the info mr ardavarz

[abdulhay]

were do u read all this, please can u recommend any books?

[Ardavarz]

Qabli nadarad. Well, I mainly draw my information from many sources - wherever I can find it. It just happens that I am able to detect patterns amongst collected data and to correlate different subjects - something like a slight form of apophenia (although I prefer to think of it as intuitive structuralism). I believe that's the way how cognition works in general.

About the books - I am not sure, it depends on the topic. For instance about Zoroastrian mythology there is a good book I use with many references including sources from Avesta to medieval authors and modern researchers, but published more than decade ago and I doubt it can be found now - the author is called I. V. Rak and it is in Russian.

There are probably newer and better works, but too expensive for me - thank gods for Ineternet where is possible to find free texts! For instance the multi-volume series "History of Civilizations in Central Asia" seems very good and is available for download here:

www.unesco.org/culture/asia/html_eng/ouvrages.htm

[abdulhay]

many thanks,


really kind of u mr,

[abdulhay]

I came across a question, how do u spell the ancient religion of the avesta? sometimes its spelled zarahustra sometimes zoroastrian, which one is correct, In iran it is pronounced zartosht, is that term the correct one?

[Ardavarz]

Zarathushtra is the name of the prophet in Avesta meaning "the one with yellow camels" (or "golden radiance" in another interpretation). It became Zartosht or Zardosht in Persian and Zoroaster in Greek. From the latter is derived the term "Zoroastrianism" used in western languages while Zoroastrians designate themselves as Mazdayasni ("worshippers of Mazda"), Behdini ("followers of the good religion") or Kushti-bastan ("belted with sacred girdle").

[abdulhay]

I see, I always thoghut worship of mazda was a different religion than zoroastrianism, I thought they who worshipped mazda was in arianism

[sarmat]

You probably confused it with Mazdakism, that is sometimes referred to as a Zorastrian sect influenced by Manichaeism.