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Post by sarmat on Dec 17, 2011 0:08:29 GMT 3
I THINK IT WOULD MAKE SENSE FOR THEM TO BE RAJPUTS. THEY ARE HERDERS IN WESTERN INDIA AND ARE NOMADIC LIKE THE GYPSIES. I BELIEVE GYPSIES HAVE A FEW THINGS IN COMMON WITH THE STEPPE NOMADS, SUCH AS BEING NOMADIC, STEALING OR RAIDING OTHER PEOPLES, BEING FAMILY ORIENTED, AND ORIGANALLY LIVING CLOSE TO THE EARTH, GATHERING AND FISHING LIKE MANY POEPLE DID WHEN FOOD WAS SCARCE. How do you define nomadic? Is it juse roaming around? Steppe nomadic societies were self-sufficient and they complitely supported themselves with cattle breeding. They also had to move primarily due to the needs of their economy, i.e. their herds needed enough pastures and steppe nomades had to move after them. I have never heard that Gypsies had any kind of cattle breeding based economy. Their economy was totally dependent on sedentary societies where they tried to co-exist with a very mixed success. They have also never been famous for warlike qualities as other nomades and also have very different culture and traditions. They don't have anything in common with Rajput-a warrior caste of India either, except that perhaps they both speak Indic languages.
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Post by irelander on Dec 17, 2011 8:12:43 GMT 3
To me a nomad is someone not tied to a particular place, who moves when ever it is more convienient for him to move. They may be tied to several location, a traditional homeland, or the natural w orld but have the ability to move and the know that theirs nothing evil or dangerous about moving to another area. The point I was making about Rajputs is that they are traditionaly nomadic herders of the Indian desert. This means that they would be able and inclined to wander if they had to. I know they have no herds now but that means little. The Bantu used to have herds but when they moved to west africa they all died and they are now farmers. The Gypsies might be theives or craftsmen now because they lost their herds and didn't like the idea becoming serfs. Don't forget that the steppe nomads also thought of stealing from sedentaries differently then stealing from nomads.
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Post by irelander on Dec 17, 2011 8:14:02 GMT 3
I never said I knew they were Rajputs I just siad they had something in comemn.
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Gypsies
Dec 17, 2011 12:12:45 GMT 3
Post by sarmat on Dec 17, 2011 12:12:45 GMT 3
First of all, steppan nomades were not just "stealing." Usually, they took smth. from the defeated enemies as trophies. "Stealing" is not exactly the value cherrished in the steppan societies. And if you read the descriptions of nomades in Medieval chronicles, you'll see that often they are described as honest and even to some extent naive people.
Second of all, while the traditional steppan culture was very open to the world and they couldnt care less about language, relgion, culture, etc., Gypsie culture is extremely racistic, where non-Gypsies are not treated as equal and can be taken the whole advantage of. Marriage to a non-Gypsy is a complete taboo in their culture and a Gypsy who marries a non-Gypsy is automatically expelled from the community.
I see only striking differences between open and heroic culture of the steppans and very closed and inflexible culture of Gypsies that discourage direct challenge, but encourages dishonesty and stealing.
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Gypsies
Dec 17, 2011 23:48:46 GMT 3
Post by hjernespiser on Dec 17, 2011 23:48:46 GMT 3
The word Gypsy forms the basis of words related to undesirable traits. "To gyp" or "gip" is to swindle someone. "A gyp" is a swindle.
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Post by irelander on Dec 18, 2011 3:40:11 GMT 3
I don't know enough about gypsies to eep arguing with you. I don't think you know very much about them eaither, besides that they steal.
All cultures pull together when around hostile people. That is why Chinatown and the Irish mob sprung up in America. Going by how people feel about them I can see how gypsies act like they do. They see others as enemies. Steppe nomads had vast grasslands to roam in, gypsies have no land.
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Post by sarmat on Dec 18, 2011 4:56:38 GMT 3
I can't tell that I am an expert of Gypsy studies, which none of us is. But I spent some time researching the subject, besides living many years in the place where Gypsies were common.
I also don't want to say that all Gypsies are thiefs, cheaters, etc., that is BS. Gypsies are very talented people and I personally met Gypsies who had great personalities.
However, I do see that their traditional culture, unfortunately, is a source of certain problems and I don't see that their culture is very similar to nomadic steppan cultures at all.
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