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Post by bars on Jun 26, 2011 20:48:30 GMT 3
Hello,
I have read in a forum (but the forum was shut down) the following message:
< Yenisei Kyrgyzs were originally forest people as well, however, they were able to organize a strong AKA nomadic style military and crush Uighur state. >
Could someone, through this forum, to let me know about the ethnic background, the lifestyle and the language of these "Yenisei Kyrgyzs", when they still were a "forest people", as well as , to let me know where their forests were located ?
Thanks
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Post by snafu on Jun 26, 2011 22:08:03 GMT 3
Their homeland was near the source of the Yenisei river in Siberia, just north of Mongolia. They lived there for many centuries and were already a powerful tribe when the Uighurs became the rulers of Mongolia. In 840 they rebelled against the Uighurs and destroyed their empire. A few centuries later they were peacefully absorbed into the Mongol empire.
Their ethnicity might've been mixed. The Chinese said they were tall with red hair and light eyes. Their culture and language was Turkic.
Their lifestyle was semi-nomadic. They bred livestock and hunted, but they also grew crops and had permanent settlements. They did a lot of business with Muslim and Chinese merchants selling furs
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 27, 2011 21:57:24 GMT 3
Greetings bars, welcome aboard The Yenisei Kyrgyz were not a real "forest people" because the lands that they lived (which corresponds mostly with modern Khakassia and Tuva) were partially mountainous-forested and partially steppe. Indeed, the steppes located in the Yenisei Basin are considered to be a different type of steppeland apart from those in Mongolia, Kazakhstan and the Pontic-Caspian steppes. Our dear member Snafu has already replied this question. Indeed, this is exactly how they were described in Chinese and Islamic sources.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jun 27, 2011 22:22:16 GMT 3
I think the real truth behind "forest people" in this context is the border people concept where people who live near the border freely pass over it and have family on both sides. If you lost your herd, you could go into the taiga to live. If you lived in the taiga, you could purchase your way to a new herd on all the furs you hunted. Many families perhaps didn't live that way, but there were those did.
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Post by snafu on Jun 28, 2011 7:33:50 GMT 3
I wish there was more stuff written about the Yenisei Kirghiz. It seems like they had a very rich culture that lasted many centuries.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 29, 2011 14:33:47 GMT 3
Indeed, they are perhaps one of the most prominent steppe people whom we know rather little about.
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Post by snafu on Jul 1, 2011 1:44:35 GMT 3
I think the Russians have written some stuff about them, but I can't read Russian.
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ajo
Är
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Post by ajo on Dec 12, 2011 22:11:46 GMT 3
Yenisei Kyrgyz(Kirghiz) are an ancient group of Turkic people. It's generally believed that Yenisei Kyrgyz are successors of Tashtyk culture of Southern Siberia. They inhabited the Minusinsk Depression and Altai mountains, which are still full of Kyrgyz balbals and kurgans. One of the oldest Turkic texts were found among those statues in Khakassia, thus suggesting the early use of Turkic runes. There are three periods which can be highlighted in the history.
1)Proto - yenisei kyrgyz:
Xiongnu empire - dingling periods.
2)Gokturk and Uyghur Khaganate:
Eventual formation of Kyrgyz Khaganate(840 - 920) Territories: East Turkestan, Altai, Tuva, Khakassia, Mongolia, Western Manchuria.
3) Mongol Empire and Dzungar Khanate
Formation of Tengir Too kyrgyz, Khakass people, Altai people, tuva people
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codythehun
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I know a lot more history than anyone in my city....well I am in California
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Post by codythehun on Oct 30, 2013 18:38:15 GMT 3
Is there any kinda theory relating the Yenisei Kirghiz to the Scytho-Siberian Pazyryk people? I mean they occupied the same general area (Altai/Sayan mountains and upper Yenisei area) and as one group disappeared, the other shows up. David Nicolle also wrote in Attila and the Nomad Hordes that "Some (the Yenisei Kirghiz) of their ruling elite were described as red haired, blue or green eyed, white skinned Andersen probably descended from ancient Indo-European peoples. I don't know, it seems rational to think this. What do you guys think?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 31, 2013 12:20:28 GMT 3
The Saka of Pazyryk area were an outsider people who came from the west and occupied the region for several centuries before disappearing into history. Surely some of them must have mixed with the local Turkic population. Skeletons found in excavations in various South Siberian cultures show us that the population of the region during the 1st millenium BC was a mixed one.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 31, 2013 12:23:57 GMT 3
I should also mention that the Pazyryk culture dates to the 5th-4th centuries BC. However, by the time of the reign of Modu Chanyu of the Huns (Xiongnu) during the late 3rd-early 2nd centuries BC, Chinese sources talk about the Jiankun (Yenisei Kyrgyz) inhabiting the region while the mention of Sakas in Central Asia in the Chinese sources of that time is limited only to the Khotan region in the Tarim Basin in East Turkestan.
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Post by snafu on Nov 10, 2013 6:48:14 GMT 3
One interesting link between the Kirghiz & Pazyryk culture--tattooing. Even as late as the Tang dynasty Chinese records say that the Yenisei Kirghiz practiced tattooing (although it sounded like a much cruder type of tattooing than the artistic tattooing of the Pazyryks). I think they mentioned that married women tattooed certain marks on their faces.
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Post by snafu on Mar 2, 2020 18:24:10 GMT 3
I was reading more about the Yenisei Kirghiz recently and here is some additional info about their khanate. Apparently the Chinese wrote an entire book about the Kirghiz and their government/realm. Unfortunately it's lost to history, and only some fragments remain.
They divided their territory into 6 regions, each one governed by one of the khagan's begs (nobles). The khagan based his government loosely on the Tang model of six ministries and three departments. He had six chief ministers (Turkic titles unknown) and three chancellors (tutuqs). Tutuqs were the highest ranking chieftains second only to the khagan. The other four levels of chieftains/officials below the tutuqs were chigsi, changsi, sangun, and darkhan. These are mostly Turkic versions of Chinese titles, mostly titles for regional governors and administrators. Sangun is from the Chinese military title of jiangjun (general). Darkhans functioned as tax collectors (taxes were owed to the khagan in the form of pelts). Councilors to high officials were called uge. There was probably some kind of meritocracy in effect because there are cases of men working their way up from uge to tutuq.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 3, 2020 23:20:10 GMT 3
Indeed. Following the fall of the Orkhon Uyghur Qaghanate in 840, ties between the Yenisei Kyrgyz and the Tang Dynasty increased on a significant amount. At that time, one of the numerous emissaries from the Kyrgyz to the Tang court presented a detailed depiction of their country, organization and culture. Although the original text is lost, it was copied in the 11th century Chinese source Xin Tangshu, and other later Chinese sources such as Wenxian Tongkao copied the same text from there. Thanks to this, we know quite a deal about the Kyrgyz, some of which can be verified from archaeological finds.
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Post by snafu on Mar 4, 2020 1:27:49 GMT 3
Do you know of any good books in English? Most of what's written about them seems to be in Russian or Turkish.
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