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Post by alanidragonrising on May 11, 2011 23:19:49 GMT 3
The Asud were a group of Alani origin, and I know very little about them apart for what I've seen on Wikipedia. What is known about these people, and is there any sign of them now? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asud |
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Post by benzin on May 12, 2011 4:11:28 GMT 3
I think Asud is from As wich is a widely used name of Volga Bulgar tribes, like Alans.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 12, 2011 23:06:34 GMT 3
Asud or Asut was the Mongol name for the well-known Alans.
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Post by Ardavarz on May 13, 2011 1:17:01 GMT 3
This is obviously Mongol plural of the name "As". Still , I think that Alans and Ases even though closely related were not identical, but this fact could contribute to the confusion between them in later times.
Abu-l'-Fidâ' (ca.1321, cited by O. Pritsak) wrote that Al'-Lân (Alans) and Al'-Âs (the As) have had a common origin, lived in neighbour lands and shared a common religion (most likely Alanic Mithraism). Other sources also speak about Alans and Ases separately. F.e. it is mentioned that in a war in 924 C.E. the Ases have fought together with Turks and Pechenegs against the Khazars while the Alans were their allies.
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Post by benzin on May 13, 2011 17:33:16 GMT 3
in 924 CE ? Im curious in wich source this is mentioned.
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Post by alanidragonrising on May 13, 2011 18:24:15 GMT 3
It had been said at one time that in any conflict there was a good chance there would be Alans fighting on either side.  |
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Post by Ardavarz on May 14, 2011 0:53:33 GMT 3
in 924 CE ? Im curious in wich source this is mentioned. It is an anonymous letter from the so-called "Jewish-Khazar Correspondence": "... And came to fight the king of Asians, and Turks, and Paynil [Pechenegs] and Macedon; only the king of Alans was ally [to Khazars because] a party of them [also] adhered to the Judaic law." Here is a Russian translation: gumilevica.kulichki.net/Rest/rest0505.htm |
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Post by merlkir on May 14, 2011 16:54:27 GMT 3
Might be an anachronism. What conflict from this time could this possibly refer to?
(and who he might be calling Alans)
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Post by Ardavarz on May 15, 2011 1:42:12 GMT 3
Well, I am not much familiar with this particular period, but I think there was a war at this time between Volga Bulgars and Khazars (just after the official adoption of Islam in Volga Bulgaria) in which some other Steppe tribes were also involved. Some authors think the Asii were amongst them.
As for the Alans - there was a little principality of Alania in Caucasus which existed up to the Mongol conquest.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on May 15, 2011 4:14:04 GMT 3
One more little info that might add extra fuel to the discussion: in the 8th century Orkhon inscriptions of the Gokturks, a rather unknown people known as the Az are recorded. These Az fought against the Gokturks on the side of the Türgish around the Tarbagatai Mountains and as far as I could understand from the inscriptions, their location is described around northwestern Mongolia, near the Bayan Ölgiy province of modern Mongolia.
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Post by alanidragonrising on Jun 9, 2011 18:17:14 GMT 3
One more little info that might add extra fuel to the discussion: in the 8th century Orkhon inscriptions of the Gokturks, a rather unknown people known as the Az are recorded. These Az fought against the Gokturks on the side of the Türgish around the Tarbagatai Mountains and as far as I could understand from the inscriptions, their location is described around northwestern Mongolia, near the Bayan Ölgiy province of modern Mongolia. That is a very interesting bit of information, and something I think I need to look further into. Thank you.  |
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 9, 2011 23:58:12 GMT 3
It is interesting that the Az are mentioned in these inscriptions next to a people called Izgil who may be related to the later Esegel in Volga Bulgaria. I wonder could these two have something to do with Jász and Székely peoples in Hungary both of who are known to have migrated there in a later time.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 10, 2011 12:07:19 GMT 3
Some scholars thought about that in the past I think.
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Post by benzin on Jun 10, 2011 13:12:51 GMT 3
Jász and Székely is different people, Jász is thought to be alanians or bulgarians. Most people thinks that the ossetians are the jaszes because the russians call them in that name but they dont like this name as their self name is digor and iron, and they always mention that its the self name of alans.
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Post by Ardavarz on Jun 11, 2011 2:52:09 GMT 3
As far as I know the Jász have come in Hungary together with Cumans in 13th century. The discovered remnants of their language show it as similar to Digorian dialect of Ossetian. Some Russian chronicles identified the earlier Yas people (Yasy) from Moldavia with Bulgars. The Russian name of the Ossetes comes from Georgian "Ovsi", while their self-designation is Iron. But now they prefer to call themselves Alans. However the neighbouring Balkars also claim Alanic ancestry. (In Balkarian folklore "alan" is used as addressing in the sense of "friend" or "comrade, fellow"). What is interesting is that Ossetian word for "Balkar" is Asyjag. Could in fact the Balkars be related to the As people then? (BTW in Ossetian "as" means "old"). Omeljan Pritsak thought that the As were Turkicized Alans. Some others have opined that it was the other way around. And all this subject seems very complicated  . |
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