There was no Kök Türük Empire?

[ancalimon]

I just watched a TV program featuring Prof. Dr. Ahmet Taşağıl from Mimar Sinan University. He says that a Kök Türük Empire did not exist. In historical records it is recorded as simply "Türk Empire".

He said that the word Kök Türük is recorded only on Kültigin Inscription East Wall 3rd line, and Kök is used as some kind of "holy" meaning.

This is what Kazım Mirşan had been telling for a long time.

What do you think about this?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmjzOvaHLxI&feature=related

starting from 1:50 in Turkish

[merlkir]

This is what Kazım Mirşan had been telling for a long time.

It must be true then, he's always right!

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

What Ahmet Taşağıl said is correct. What Kazım Mirşan claimed is wrong. The Gokturks were referred in Old Turkic as Türük and Türk (Kök Türük is mentioned only twice in the inscriptions and they were in the same text - the one in Bilgä Qaghans inscription is from the copy of Köl Tigin Monuments text), in Chinese as Tu-jue (T'u-chüeh) 突厥 and Tu-qu (T'u-ch'ü) 突屈, in Soghdian as tr'wk (plural tr'wkt), in Greek as Tourkos Τούρκος (plural Tourkoi Τούρκοι), in Arabic and Classical Persian as Turk ﺘﺮﻚ (Arabic plural Atrāk ﺍﺘﺮﺍﻚ), in Syriac as Turkaye, in Sanskrit as Turuśka, in Tibetan as Drug and Dru-gu and in Khotanese as ttūrk, ttrruki and tturki. It was either Friedrich Hirth or Johann Wilhelm Bang Kaup who used the rare form Kök Türük in German (as Köktürk) to distinguish them from other Turkic peoples. 20th century scholars continued from their footsteps but not all scholars use this version (for example, American scholars usually refer to the Gokturk Empire as Türk Qaghanate).

On the other hand, without a single knowledge on Central Asian history and culture, Kazım Mirşan claims that the Kök in Kök Türük was not Kök but Ökik. Of course this nonsense claim is out of question.

[Ardavarz]

I have come across explanations of the "Kök Türk" name also as "Eastern Turks" based on Chinese correlation of colours and directions in the "five elements" theory where "blue" is "east". But then Western Turks should be called "white" and I haven't heard of such a name. There is "White Huns" indeed (about a century earlier), but I am not sure if these were related. Maybe it's possible...

On the other hand in Bulgarian system (which unlike Chinese is based on a "four elements" theory) "kök"/blue is north.

[ancalimon]

Jan 4, 2011 3:33:21 GMT 3 Ardavarz said:

I have come across explanations of the "Kök Türk" name also as "Eastern Turks" based on Chinese correlation of colours and directions in the "five elements" theory where "blue" is "east". But then Western Turks should be called "white" and I haven't heard of such a name. There is "White Huns" indeed (about a century earlier), but I am not sure if these were related. Maybe it's possible...

On the other hand in Bulgarian system (which unlike Chinese is based on a "four elements" theory) "kök"/blue is north.

Then comes the question.. Blue according to whom? Whose position? White according to whom?

Black Sea: North Sea?
White, Red Sea....

[ancalimon]

Jan 3, 2011 22:06:45 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

What Ahmet Taşağıl said is correct. What Kazım Mirşan claimed is wrong. The Gokturks were referred in Old Turkic as Türük and Türk (Kök Türük is mentioned only twice in the inscriptions and they were in the same text - the one in Bilgä Qaghans inscription is from the copy of Köl Tigin Monuments text), in Chinese as Tu-jue (T'u-chüeh) 突厥 and Tu-qu (T'u-ch'ü) 突屈, in Soghdian as tr'wk (plural tr'wkt), in Greek as Tourkos Τούρκος (plural Tourkoi Τούρκοι), in Arabic and Classical Persian as Turk ﺘﺮﻚ (Arabic plural Atrāk ﺍﺘﺮﺍﻚ), in Syriac as Turkaye, in Sanskrit as Turuśka, in Tibetan as Drug and Dru-gu and in Khotanese as ttūrk, ttrruki and tturki. It was either Friedrich Hirth or Johann Wilhelm Bang Kaup who used the rare form Kök Türük in German (as Köktürk) to distinguish them from other Turkic peoples. 20th century scholars continued from their footsteps but not all scholars use this version (for example, American scholars usually refer to the Gokturk Empire as Türk Qaghanate).

On the other hand, without a single knowledge on Central Asian history and culture, Kazım Mirşan claims that the Kök in Kök Türük was not Kök but Ökik. Of course this nonsense claim is out of question.

I don't know whether he knows anything about Central Asian history or not. But I know that he spent his life on this subject. I can say that he probably have spent near 50 years on this subject by looking at his books.

I am not saying he doesn't have any mistakes. But I think calling him weirdo simply because you don't agree with him sounds a little harsh. The Turkic dialects he speak are reason enough to know that he at least have some knowledge about Central Asian culture.
tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaz%C4%B1m_Mir%C5%9Fan

About kök-ökük.

I remember him saying that two different letters in the same alphabet should be spelled differently, while the counter idea was that the first K letter made the vowel after it last longer.

I still don't know whether my name should be Orhun or Orkun or Orun

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I have come across explanations of the "Kök Türk" name also as "Eastern Turks" based on Chinese correlation of colours and directions in the "five elements" theory where "blue" is "east". But then Western Turks should be called "white" and I haven't heard of such a name. There is "White Huns" indeed (about a century earlier), but I am not sure if these were related. Maybe it's possible...

İsenbike Togan has proposed something like this and has called the Western Gokturks "White Turks", but until now, we still have not come across with any historical text that mentions that name. Her claim has not been accepted by any scholars in Turkey.

Black Sea: North Sea?
White, Red Sea....

Yes, the entire naming system of Black and Red seas, as well as the Mediterrenean in Turkish, comes from the Turkic concept of naming directions with names:

- Black Sea = Northern Sea
- White Sea = Western Sea (Mediterrenean)
- Red Sea = Southern Sea

There is no "Blue Sea" though

I don't know whether he knows anything about Central Asian history or not.

But I know that he doesn't know anything about it. It is obvious from his claims.

But I know that he spent his life on this subject. I can say that he probably have spent near 50 years on this subject by looking at his books.

What a waste of life. It would have been better if he had spent his energy and time on his real profession, which is electric-electronic engineering.

I am not saying he doesn't have any mistakes. But I think calling him weirdo simply because you don't agree with him sounds a little harsh. The Turkic dialects he speak are reason enough to know that he at least have some knowledge about Central Asian culture.
tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaz%C4%B1m_Mir%C5%9Fan

He claims to be knowing and speaking those dialects but in fact, Osman Fikri Sertkaya has prooved in several articles that he doesn't know them.

About kök-ökük.

I remember him saying that two different letters in the same alphabet should be spelled differently, while the counter idea was that the first K letter made the vowel after it last longer.

The spelling and pronunciation of Kök has been a subject of debate. While most of the previous Turkologists have read it as Kök, Talat Tekin has proposed that it should be Köök, with a long vowel.

I still don't know whether my name should be Orhun or Orkun or Orun

Orhun is the Modern Turkish rendering of the Old Turkic river name Orqun. Orun, on the other hand, means "Throne" and "Rank" in Old Turkic.

[hjernespiser]

Jan 4, 2011 18:47:35 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

The spelling and pronunciation of Kök has been a subject of debate. While most of the previous Turkologists have read it as Kök, Talat Tekin has proposed that it should be Köök, with a long vowel.

That's rather interesting. In Hungarian, the loanword kék is also a long vowel.

[Ardavarz]

Jan 4, 2011 18:47:35 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

I have come across explanations of the "Kök Türk" name also as "Eastern Turks" based on Chinese correlation of colours and directions in the "five elements" theory where "blue" is "east". But then Western Turks should be called "white" and I haven't heard of such a name. There is "White Huns" indeed (about a century earlier), but I am not sure if these were related. Maybe it's possible...

İsenbike Togan has proposed something like this and has called the Western Gokturks "White Turks", but until now, we still have not come across with any historical text that mentions that name. Her claim has not been accepted by any scholars in Turkey.


Yes, the entire naming system of Black and Red seas, as well as the Mediterrenean in Turkish, comes from the Turkic concept of naming directions with names:

- Black Sea = Northern Sea
- White Sea = Western Sea (Mediterrenean)
- Red Sea = Southern Sea

There is no "Blue Sea" though

Well, there is a correspondence in Bulgarian system too - at least from the point of view of the Volga Bulgars:

Black Sea is "Western Sea" because in this system black is "west".
Likewise the Bulgars in Ukraine were "Black Bulgars" (Qara Bulghar) while the Volga Bulgars themselves - "White or Silver Bulgars" (Aq Bulghar), because white is "east".
The Qïpchaks in the south were Kumans (from quma/quba - "yellow", in Russian - Polovcy) and the colour of south is yellow.
And yes, there was a "Blue Sea" - a part of the Arctic Ocean was called by Volga Bulgars Kük Dingez or "Northern Sea".

So, as it seems, everything is relative apparently .

[ancalimon]

Jan 4, 2011 18:47:35 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

I have come across explanations of the "Kök Türk" name also as "Eastern Turks" based on Chinese correlation of colours and directions in the "five elements" theory where "blue" is "east". But then Western Turks should be called "white" and I haven't heard of such a name. There is "White Huns" indeed (about a century earlier), but I am not sure if these were related. Maybe it's possible...

İsenbike Togan has proposed something like this and has called the Western Gokturks "White Turks", but until now, we still have not come across with any historical text that mentions that name. Her claim has not been accepted by any scholars in Turkey.


Yes, the entire naming system of Black and Red seas, as well as the Mediterrenean in Turkish, comes from the Turkic concept of naming directions with names:

- Black Sea = Northern Sea
- White Sea = Western Sea (Mediterrenean)
- Red Sea = Southern Sea

There is no "Blue Sea" though


But I know that he doesn't know anything about it. It is obvious from his claims.


What a waste of life. It would have been better if he had spent his energy and time on his real profession, which is electric-electronic engineering.


He claims to be knowing and speaking those dialects but in fact, Osman Fikri Sertkaya has prooved in several articles that he doesn't know them.


The spelling and pronunciation of Kök has been a subject of debate. While most of the previous Turkologists have read it as Kök, Talat Tekin has proposed that it should be Köök, with a long vowel.

I still don't know whether my name should be Orhun or Orkun or Orun

Orhun is the Modern Turkish rendering of the Old Turkic river name Orqun. Orun, on the other hand, means "Throne" and "Rank" in Old Turkic.

What were Black Sea and Red Sea called before the arrival of Turks in Anatolia?

I would really like to see those articles of Fikri Sertkaya proving that Kazım Mirşan lied about the languages he knew. Do you know whether those articles can be found online?

Also do you have Kazım Mirşan's books?

[hjernespiser]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea#Historical_names

[Temüjin]

those articles should be removed after user ancalimon reads them, because of the strict proboards rule on the use of foreign langauges.

[hjernespiser]

Maybe just run them quickly through Google Translate! ;D

[ancalimon]

I got them. Thanks

[ALTAR]

I deleted the articles. If anyone want them, please send me p.m.