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Post by hjernespiser on Jan 4, 2011 20:27:25 GMT 3
Indeed, the word means "river" in general. The Volga was not the only river to bear that name. In fact the Volga was known as the Ulug Etil. The Kama was the Black Adil to the Chuvash and the White Etil has already been mentioned above. The Dnieper is another river called Etil. As for the name being applied specifically to the Don, I'd have to look that up. The Hungarian Etelkozu simply meant a land between rivers. Historians have been debating which two rivers for a long time.
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Post by Ardavarz on Jan 5, 2011 2:48:46 GMT 3
Yeap. What you are writing is quite true I do think. The source on what I said is the "Atelkuzu" (Etelköz in hungarian) from the "De administratio imperio" from the X. cent. It's maybe the only one reliable source on the river Atel, and it's been clearly identified with the river "Don". I know there is a great time difference (half a millenia) between the fifth and the tenth century, but still it is the most earliest source I do think. Plus, I do think those bolgars who founded Volga Bolgaria was not in the Volga region yet in the fifth century. In fact, they were on the pontic steppe near Crimean-peninsula and the foothills of the Caucasus. Maybe, but I don't know for sure. Some legends mention Bulgarian rulers (Tukïy, Aydar) in Volga basin as early as first decades of 7th century - around the time of the prophet Muhammad. The Bulgars should have passed there even earlier while coming from their Central Asian homeland. Actually there is a legend about a mythical ancestor of Bulgars and Burtas called Alïp (in Turkic "giant, hero"). He came from the East in the Volga region and married there among native tribes who spoke a similar language. His sons named the river Etil because when seen from east it resembled "dog's tongue" ( et tile). I think this is just a folk etymology, but the legend could reflect some obscure memory of Hun or Bulgar migration.
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Post by abdulhay on Dec 27, 2011 1:33:23 GMT 3
very interesting, how do u pronuonce it?
can u give a source to the word?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 27, 2011 23:16:44 GMT 3
It is pronounced like the way it's written: Bägni (with an ä or "open e").
All Old Turkic dictionaries contain that word.
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Post by abdulhay on Dec 31, 2011 1:00:36 GMT 3
Interesting, were can you get hold of old turkic dictionaries?
how many words did the turkic language in medieval times posses of ?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 31, 2011 20:04:11 GMT 3
The most important Old Turkic dictionaries were those of Wilhelm Radloff, Annemarie von Gabain (in her Alttürkische Grammatik), Ali Ahmetbeyoðlu (this included only Old Uyghur) and Gerard Clauson. You can check them from Google. I don't know how many words Old Turkic includes, but Mahmud of Kasghar recorded something around 8 thousand words, yet he also noted that he did not include words that were used by non-Muslim Turks of his time.
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 31, 2011 23:22:09 GMT 3
Recently I came across this etymological database: alterling2.narod.ru/Tables/Main.htmlI don't know how accurate it is - found it just yesterday, but the Turkic table includes examples from 20 different or closely related languages.
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Post by abdulhay on Jan 1, 2012 3:07:01 GMT 3
thanks for the info,
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