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Post by ancalimon on Dec 4, 2010 9:41:36 GMT 3
It's bugging me. As we know Asia and Europe are not really different continents in truth.
How is Europe named and when was it named?
Did it happen long ago? Or is it a rather new event (1000, 2000 years)?
Did it take its name from the word "ereb" which is related to Arab which is related to West?
Any other ideas apart from the known theories?
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Post by merlkir on Dec 4, 2010 12:49:43 GMT 3
Yeah, screw the known (lying thieving IndoEuropean and Greek) theories, let us know how Turks named Europe! ;P
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 4, 2010 23:35:24 GMT 3
According to the Greek myth Europe was a Phoenician princess kidnapped by Zeus and taken to island of Crete where she gave birth to Minos and Radamanthys, thus founding the Minoan dynasty. Still Herodotus observed that this is not quite proper since she has never set foot on the continent itself.
I think I have read about some hypotheses trying to explain the name from Phoenician word for "twilight, sundown" thus "west", but I don't remember what they were.
Also there is a passage in Snorre Sturluson's chronicle "Heimskringla" (13th century) in which he writes that some call Europe by another name - Enea. I've never come across another mention of this alternative name of the continent, nor any kind of explanation of it. My guess is that it is derived from the name of Aeneas - the forefather of Romans who according to the legend came from Troy to Italy. So it would be more appropriate to use this name (if it ever was known), but I'd rather not say that - otherwise somebody may accuse me of sexism ;D.
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 4, 2010 23:59:21 GMT 3
According to the Greek myth Europe was a Phoenician princess kidnapped by Zeus and taken to island of Crete where she gave birth to Minos and Radamanthys, thus founding the Minoan dynasty. Still Herodotus observed that this is not quite proper since she has never set foot on the continent itself. I think I have read about some hypotheses trying to explain the name from Phoenician word for "twilight, sundown" thus "west", but I don't remember what they were. Also there is a passage in Snorre Sturluson's chronicle "Heimskringla" (13th century) in which he writes that some call Europe by another name - Enea. I've never come across another mention of this alternative name of the continent, nor any kind of explanation of it. My guess is that it is derived from the name of Aeneas - the forefather of Romans who according to the legend came from Troy to Italy. So it would be more appropriate to use this name (if it ever was known), but I'd rather not say that - otherwise somebody may accuse me of sexism ;D. Eneas > Enear The S must turn into a R but what is that N doing in the middle? We need to reach Euro I have created my own theory today but I think I is a bit far fetched. I am not that sure anymore. Asia > Aria The S sound turned into R sound according to my made up theory. It is in harmony with phonetics rule. Just like the Oguz > Ogur connection. Even if not connected. The people who went to Europe started to pronounce the ancient name Asia as Aria. It is the same continent after all. Isn't it? |
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 5, 2010 2:46:08 GMT 3
No, the name "Europe" has nothing to do with Aeneas. I just suggested that it maybe the source for Snorri's "Enea" which as far as I know is a hapax legomenon.
As for "Asia", that's another topic. Herodotus relates that Greeks have associated it with the name of Prometheus's wife Asia, while Lydians with some obscure hero or king named Asias or Asies. It seems even then (in 5th century B.C.E.) that was not quite clear.
I myself have speculated about a possible relation of "Asia" with the name of supposedly Alanic tribe of As (Ās). In fact Snorri Sturluson obviously has thought it derives from Aesir - the people of Odin. There are actually several similar ethnonyms in Asia from late Antiquity to Middle Ages which may or may not be related to each other. All this is really as fascinating as unclear and it's one of my favorite topics. I have gathered some data about it, but everything is still in the sphere of wild hypotheses.
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Post by merlkir on Dec 5, 2010 12:26:24 GMT 3
Wait, wouldn't the word Asia be older than any Alanic tribes? (if Herodotus knew it..)
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 6, 2010 8:26:34 GMT 3
Yeah, screw the known (lying thieving IndoEuropean and Greek) theories, let us know how Turks named Europe! ;P Well it would be too easy to say "Ira means "far away" in Turkic so Europe was named by Turks who thought Europe was far away. or They couldn't have pointed Europe and called it Ora (there) now could they But it can't be that easy. We are talking about a very big place. There have to be an extremely complex explanation. If we tried to explain it by similar sounding words, we wouldn't reach anywhere. So no.. I am not saying it was named by Turks. We don't even know who named America! and that a new continent  (at least for us old earthlings  ) |
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 7, 2010 3:16:46 GMT 3
Wait, wouldn't the word Asia be older than any Alanic tribes? (if Herodotus knew it..) Yes, that is one of the difficulties in bringing the data in concordance with this conjecture. I wouldn't insist on it too much - it is difficult to maintain. Still, it is interesting. The oldest mentions of such ethnonyms (Asoi, Asianae, Aseni etc.) refer them to Central Asian region about several centuries B.C.E. But then from where did Asia Minor get its name? If it is "minor Asia", where is "major Asia" or "Great Asia" (Asia Magna)? The allegedly Alanic tribe of As in North Caucasus might be related to these in Central Asia or otherwise it might have received it from some older population. Maybe it was applied to the Scythians living there intermingled with local Caucasian tribes. This could explain some of their appellations used by Semitic peoples after Scythian invasion in Middle East in 7th century B.C.E. (like Assyrian Ashquza and Hebrew Ashkenaz) and perhaps also "Asia Minor". According one of the theories about the Bronze Age civilization of North-Western Caucasus it was called kingdom of Ashuya (or "land along the sea" from proto- Abkhazian) and it's population - Ashawa. And it is there where Scythians have passed a millenium later to reach Asia Minor and Middle East, so maybe they were called after that region which name later have came to designate "Asia" in general. (I should remind that in ancient times the line of demarcation between Europe and Asia was Black Sea and Don River). But all this is still too speculative. |
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 7, 2010 7:40:47 GMT 3
What did the Chinese call it ? I guess they would have recorded it if Zeus really abducted Princess Europa and gave her name to those lands. Or maybe the news didn't reach China (due to distance, walls and their policies) and they still use the old name of those lands |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 7, 2010 15:51:54 GMT 3
One thing that puzzles me is the ethnonym Az mentioned in the Orkhon Inscriptions. From the description, they lived somewhere around Northwestern Mongolia.
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Post by merlkir on Dec 7, 2010 17:25:15 GMT 3
What did the Chinese call it ? I guess they would have recorded it if Zeus really abducted Princess Europa and gave her name to those lands. Or maybe the news didn't reach China (due to distance, walls and their policies) and they still use the old name of those lands so funny, I can't stop laughing. You funny guy. (I'm sure you're in no way trying to make us answer: "well, it's Ouzhou in Mandarin chinese." to which you would never try to reply: "Yes! Ouzhou is OGUZÖY". I'm sure you're honestly asking us, not trying to drag us into this oguz nonsense. Ōuzhōu (歐洲) is an abbreviation of the transliterated name Ōuluóbā zhōu (歐羅巴洲) |
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 7, 2010 17:25:15 GMT 3
One thing that puzzles me is the ethnonym Az mentioned in the Orkhon Inscriptions. From the description, they lived somewhere around Northwestern Mongolia. Do we know where exactly. I mean "the distance" |
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Post by Ardavarz on Dec 8, 2010 3:31:32 GMT 3
One thing that puzzles me is the ethnonym Az mentioned in the Orkhon Inscriptions. From the description, they lived somewhere around Northwestern Mongolia. Yes, that's another big puzzle too. In Kül Tegin's inscription giving an account of the westward expansion of Kök-Turks the people of Az ( Az budun) is mentioned immediately before that of Izgil ( Izgil budun). Now, Izgil seems to be related to Asgil/Ishgil/Iskil counted by Muslim sources (Ibn Rusta, Gardīzī, anonymous "Hudūd al-'Alam" etc.) as a Bulgarian tribe amongst the Volga Bulgars. See f.e.: www.kroraina.com/hudud/hud_51.htmlwww.kroraina.com/hudud/hud_51_c.htmlSome authors relate them also to the Szekler/Székely people in Transylvania. According to the Orkhon inscription the ruler (or general) of the Az who was captured by Kül Tegin have had the title eltäbär. This is very similar to the title of Volga Bulgars' king blṭwār (most likely ylṭwār < *yiltüver) given by Ibn Fadlān and also that of the Hunnic prince Alp' Ilit'uer in Movses Dasxurants'i's "History of the Aghuans". Is it possible that the Az were also a Hunno-Bulgarian tribe? Something else is interesting. According to Mahmūd al-Kāshgharī the word āz, ās or as means "ermine" ( Mustela erminea). A similar animal - the sable ( Mustela zibellina) - is called in Mongolian bulga, which is thought sometimes to be the source of the ethnonym " Bulgar". Thus maybe Az and Bulgar are just two alternative names (Turkic and Mongolian) for the Central Asian Bulgars? I am not sure if it's possible to relate the Az with Western Jassic people known as Jász in Hungary from 13th century where they came together with the Cumans. Before that they have lived in Don Basin and Northern Caucasus. Some scholars think they may have been descendants of the Alanic (or Sarmatian) Iaziges, but some Russian chronicles allude that "Jasy" might be Bulgarian tribe too. |
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Post by ancalimon on Dec 8, 2010 4:50:42 GMT 3
There should be a difference in spelling of names according to these.
BuLgAZ <> BuLgAR <> BuRgAZ
L<>R
R<>Z
That's all too confusing.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 9, 2010 18:08:12 GMT 3
I assume somewhere around Bayan Ölgiy.
But the title Iltäbär/Eltäbär was a title commonly used by many Turkic peoples, so it was not unique to the Bulghars.
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(at least for us old earthlings 
)
