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Post by Asparuh on Oct 26, 2010 23:56:50 GMT 3
Interesting posts.Yilan,Jilan its almost like my name-ILIYAN,.
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 27, 2010 3:27:07 GMT 3
Well, I think the rendering "Attilas/Attila" of the Graeco-Roman authors from 5th-6th centuries (like Priscus, Marcellinus, Procopius, Jordanes, Malalas etc.) should have been most close to the original pronunciation since their writings were based on the evidence of contemporaries. Even though the manuscripts were copied later, it seems less probable that different scribes in different centuries could have made an identical mistake. The German and Scandinavian epics like Song of the Nibellungs and the Edda have been recorded much later and moreover they are based on an oral tradition. On the other hand many different pronunciations and interpretations (or folk etymologies) of the name could have existed in the multiethnical milieu of the Hunnic alliance even in the time of Attila himself.
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Post by gmonte on Oct 27, 2010 15:03:22 GMT 3
Here is something I noticed, Attila's uncle had at least 4 names that I know about, that contemporary authors wrote... Rugila, Ruhas, Ruga, Rua. Of your list of writers, Priscus was the only one who lived when Attila lived. Jordanes clearly read Priscus. Procpius and Malalas probably did also. So, if Priscus would have wrote the name as "Itila". I think we would be discussing wether he was named after the volga or iron. I just came across this edict the other day, from the Theodosian codes: Idem aa. Anthemio praefecto praetorio. Scyras barbaram nationem maximis chunorum, quibus se coniunxerunt, copiis fusis imperio nostro subegimus. ideoque damus omnibus copiam ex praedicto genere hominum agros proprios frequentandi, ita ut omnes sciant susceptos non alio iure quam colonatus apud se futuros nullique licere ex hoc genere colonorum ab eo, cui semel adtributi fuerint, vel fraude aliquem abducere vel fugientem suscipere, poena proposita, quae recipientes alienis censibus adscriptos vel non proprios colonos insequitur. Opera autem eorum terrarum domini libera utantur ac nullus sub acta peraequatione vel censui ...acent nullique liceat velut donatos eos a iure census in servitutem trahere urbanisve obsequiis addicere, licet intra biennium suscipientibus liceat pro rei frumentariae angustiis in quibuslibet provinciis transmarinis tantummodo eos retinere et postea in sedes perpetuas collocare, a partibus Thraciae vel Illyrici habitatione eorum penitus prohibenda et intra quinquennium dumtaxat intra eiusdem provinciae fines eorum traductione, prout libuerit, concedenda, iuniorum quoque intra praedictos viginti annos praebitione cessante. Ita ut per libellos sedem tuam adeuntibus his qui voluerint per transmarinas provincias eorum distributio fiat. Dat. prid. id. april. Constantinopoli Honorio viii et Theodosio iii conss. (409 apr. 12). So in 409 ad there was a hun leader "maximis chunorum" named Sycras. The huns are written as chuni and chunni by many western writers. Who is this....Sycras?...Ras?...Rua?.. ?...someone else??? I would love to see some ancient Bulgar inscriptions witj Attila's name. Speaking of Bulgars, I just met a guy who's name is Kiril in Bulgarian. Kiril is really Cyril which is Constantine
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 28, 2010 2:36:01 GMT 3
Here is something I noticed, Attila's uncle had at least 4 names that I know about, that contemporary authors wrote... Rugila, Ruhas, Ruga, Rua. Of your list of writers, Priscus was the only one who lived when Attila lived. Jordanes clearly read Priscus. Procpius and Malalas probably did also. So, if Priscus would have wrote the name as "Itila". I think we would be discussing wether he was named after the volga or iron. Of course, many of them could have read it. And they could have also other sources unknown to us - they still have lived not too long after these events. O. Pritsak refer also to some "Galic Chronicle" ca. 452 which I am not acquainted with - this is supposedly another source from 5th century which also spells the name "Attila". It's interesting still that earlier authors give an A-variant and the later ones - E-variant like German Etzel or Hungarian Ethele. I just came across this edict the other day, from the Theodosian codes: Idem aa. Anthemio praefecto praetorio. Scyras barbaram nationem maximis chunorum, quibus se coniunxerunt, copiis fusis imperio nostro subegimus. ideoque damus omnibus copiam ex praedicto genere hominum agros proprios frequentandi, ita ut omnes sciant susceptos non alio iure quam colonatus apud se futuros nullique licere ex hoc genere colonorum ab eo, cui semel adtributi fuerint, vel fraude aliquem abducere vel fugientem suscipere, poena proposita, quae recipientes alienis censibus adscriptos vel non proprios colonos insequitur. Opera autem eorum terrarum domini libera utantur ac nullus sub acta peraequatione vel censui ...acent nullique liceat velut donatos eos a iure census in servitutem trahere urbanisve obsequiis addicere, licet intra biennium suscipientibus liceat pro rei frumentariae angustiis in quibuslibet provinciis transmarinis tantummodo eos retinere et postea in sedes perpetuas collocare, a partibus Thraciae vel Illyrici habitatione eorum penitus prohibenda et intra quinquennium dumtaxat intra eiusdem provinciae fines eorum traductione, prout libuerit, concedenda, iuniorum quoque intra praedictos viginti annos praebitione cessante. Ita ut per libellos sedem tuam adeuntibus his qui voluerint per transmarinas provincias eorum distributio fiat. Dat. prid. id. april. Constantinopoli Honorio viii et Theodosio iii conss. (409 apr. 12). So in 409 ad there was a hun leader "maximis chunorum" named Sycras. The huns are written as chuni and chunni by many western writers. Who is this....Sycras?...Ras?...Rua?.. ?...someone else??? That's interesting. At that time supreme ruler of the Huns was Uldin. Maybe Scyras is another name or nickname? It sounds similar to the name of a later king of Sabiri - Styrax, but this could be just a coincidence. I would love to see some ancient Bulgar inscriptions witj Attila's name. Speaking of Bulgars, I just met a guy who's name is Kiril in Bulgarian. Kiril is really Cyril which is Constantine Well, the Greek Bulgarian inscriptions and also the Arabian ones from Volga Bulgaria are too late to mention Attila. And the earlier runiform inscriptions are not properly deciphered yet. Not only there is no bilingua to begin with, but they also obviously belong to several different systems of writing (up to 8 or even more). But we can still hope. Only in Bulgaria have found several hundred runiform inscriptions and fragments most of which still unpublished.
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 29, 2010 0:12:22 GMT 3
Another thought - maybe Scyras is a distortion of ancient Scythian name Skylēs (Western Scythian pronunciation of Iranian Scytha/Skuda - "Scythian", literally "bowman"). The Huns have surely assimilated the remnants of ancient Scythian culture. In fact Priscus call them Scythians.
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 29, 2010 3:19:37 GMT 3
Interesting but not unique. That's the effect of later umlauting in the Germanic languages, fronting vowels in stressed syllables. It's why Angles became English; why foti became feet. Incidentally, it's a clue that the stress was on the first syllable of Attila's name: AT-il-a, not a-TIL-a.
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Post by gmonte on Oct 29, 2010 9:15:48 GMT 3
Of course, many of them could have read it. And they could have also other sources unknown to us - they still have lived not too long after these events. O. Pritsak refer also to some "Galic Chronicle" ca. 452 which I am not acquainted with - this is supposedly another source from 5th century which also spells the name "Attila". It's interesting still that earlier authors give an A-variant and the later ones - E-variant like German Etzel or Hungarian Ethele. I think maybe the Venerable Bede, I'm not sure. So, if it is AT-il-a or AT-Til-a, what does this translate into from ancient turkish
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 30, 2010 0:18:23 GMT 3
My impressions are that Germanic languages tend to place the stress on the first syllable anyway. By the way this is so also in Hungarian as far as I know. Does somebody knows how Hungarians pronounce the name "Attila" today?
Still, that doesn't necessary mean that the same was right for Hunnic. The medieval Greek authors put the stress on the second syllable (in fact Joannes Malalas even writes it with a circumflex on the last syllable). O. Pritsak believes that this reflects the original Hunnic pronunciation. He writes: "My premise here is that the Middle Greek accentuation of foreign names can be treated seriously".
Here is another excerpt from his article "The Hunnic Language of the Attila Clan" (I already wrote about this hypothesis in my first post):
Άττίλα/Αttilα.95 In 1955 I showed that 'Αττίλας/Attila should be analyzed as a composite title consisting of *es 'great, old', *t1il1· 'sea, ocean', and the suffix /a/. The stressed back syllabic til (= t1il1· ) assimilated the front member es, so it became *as.96 The consonantic sequence s-t (aş til-) became, due to metathesis, t-s, which by assimilation resulted in tt.97 In 1981 I was able to establish a Danube-Bulgarian nominative-suffix /A/ from the consonantic stems.98 Recalling that Danube-Bulgarian was a Hunnic language, I can now add to the data in the article of 1955 the following: the Hunnic title attíla is a nominative, (in /A/) form of attíl- (< *etsíl < *es tíl) with the meaning "the oceanic, universal [ruler];" cf. the title of the Pećeneg ruler Куря, i.e., Kür+ä, meaning "universal"...
95 Αττίλας: Priscus, ed. de Boor, EL, p. 121, 1. 18; p. 127, 11. 20, 24, 29, 32 et passim; Procopius, ed. Dewing, vol. 2, p. 40, 1. 17; p. 42, 11. 7, 12, etc.; 'Αττιλᾶς: Joannes Malalas, ed. Dindorf, p. 358, 11. 8, 11, 15, etc. = Byz. Tur, 2: 79-80. Attila: Marcellinus Comes, Chronicon, ed. Mommsen, p. 79, 1. 5 et passim; see MGH AA, vol. 13, "Index nominum," s.v. Attila. Jordanes, Getica, ed. Skrzinskaja, p. 159, 11. 25, 32, 39, 41, 42 et passim; Attyla: "Anonymus Ravennas," ed. Schnetz, p. 67,1. 33; Atala abl ~ Atalum acc, "Historia Pseudoisidoriana" [ca. 1000], ed. Th. Mommsen, MGH AA, vol. 11, p. 384,11. 5, 10. 96 Pritsak, "Der Titel Attila" (see fn. 1), pp. 404-419. 97 See, e.g., the sound change in Yakut: st > ts > tt : Yakut sïttïq < *ʒatsiq < *yastuq; cf. Räsänen, Lautgeschichte, p. 225, and Clauson, EDT, p. 974. 98 Pritsak, "Proto-Bulgarian Military Inventory Inscriptions" (see fn. 92), p. 60. 99 Priscus, ed. de Boor, EL, p. 122, 1. 18 = Byz Tur, 2: 76.
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 30, 2010 2:44:04 GMT 3
That's the point for why the E-variants are newer than the A-variants and why the E-variants are not good evidence for anything. In any case, stressing the first syllable is how the Germanic peoples at the time pronounced the name. Here's Maenchen-Helfen's response to Pritsak: www.kroraina.com/huns/mh/mh_4.html"To begin with the arguments based on Chuvash words and forms, according to Benzing (the leading authority on Chuvash), Turkish a/ä changed to Chuvash i/ï not before the eleventh or twelfth century. [94] Even if there existed a Chuvash word *as, "big, great, large," how can we know that in the language of the Huns in the fifth century the same word existed with the same meaning?" Maenchen-Helfen seemed to favor the Germanic "dear father" theory. The author of "The Night Attila Died" favors that theory.
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Post by gmonte on Oct 30, 2010 4:56:18 GMT 3
OK, here is my argument to both of these theories.
So if I understand correctly Attila means the “ocean, universal” or “ultimate ruler”, I assume. What does Bleda mean? The “other guy”?
If the name means “dear father” or “little father” What does Bleda mean? The Big Uncle?
Bleda and Attila's name were written right after they took power. I would have a hard time believing he received these titles prior to doing anything. Dear Father or Ocean Universal ruler.
Charlemagne....Charles Magni...Charles the Great became great years after his death..not when he took power. He was just King Charles.
The first mention of the name Attila comes from Priscus, at the meeting in Margus. Where he and Bleda meet with the Romans on horse back and got a treaty. 433/434 ad. This is the earliest I have found.
If you read the fragments of priscus, it does sound like a journal, not a daily journal, but maybe a consolidation of a daily journal that was condensed in his time and then as we know rewritten in the Excerpta de legationibus of the 10th century. Now I agree Priscus is recapping but talks of Bleda and Attila, as Attila being the junior.
Now here is a thought....after the time of Attila, the name Attila became synonymous with dear father or great leader....but I am more apt to believe the name meant Iron or the Volga during his time.
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 31, 2010 1:49:08 GMT 3
Well, the onomastics in various cultures could be very peculiar sometimes. Let's take for example the Arabians (and Muslims in general) - there a person can be named Abu 'Ali which means "father of 'Ali" even if he have no sons at all (that was the personal name of Avicenna/Ibn Sinā who was in fact a Tājīk).
The interpretation "big water" seems to me plausible if applied to the river Itil/Volga, but I am not sure if it could be related to the name Attila. This remains me of a funny story I've heard years ago. An elder friend of mine told me of his journey to a small miners' town somewhere north in Canada. Its name was Atleen or something like that which in the language of the natives did have the meaning of "big water". Well, he said, maybe there really is something in that, if the native Americans have actually come from Asia. And then he became acquainted with a Scot gentleman - an attorney in this town who believed that his ancestors have been Huns. And we pondered some time is it really possible that the Huns have reached as far as Scotland. (Indeed Priscus mentions something about "islands of the Ocean" being tributaries of Attila, but it is usually thought that he had in mind the Baltic Sea). Maybe this person is derived his notion from some legend or from the medieval chronicles which connect Scots with Scythians?
Anyway, the problem seems to be that: is "Attila" a name or a title?
As I mentioned before the Volga Bulghars' tradition claims that the name of Attila was Audan. But there is no other source to confirm this. Except maybe the Scandinavian legend of Odin (Ódhinn) - according to Snorri he was a king who came from Tyrkland (land of the Turks) east of river Don. Recently I really came across a post somewhere in the net which suggests that Odin was in fact a Hunnic ruler - perhaps Uldin (ca. 395 - 410). Why not Attila-Audan? And maybe Bleda was the prototype of Baldr? (Just a wild thought!) Is it possible that the Norse myths are based on some obscure memory of real events from the Great Migration period? I have read somewhere (I think it was in O. Spengler's "Decline of the West") that there isn't any signs of the Odin's cult before that time.
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 31, 2010 8:27:55 GMT 3
gmonte wrote:
Are you sure you are translating that right? Is Scyras the Sciri?
ardavarz wrote:
To make matters worse, titles have been adopted as names and names have become titles! One issue about Snorri is that he was trying to remove the pagan religion part of the Scandinavian sagas for Christian readers. I wouldn't place too much credence on his idea about Odin coming from Asia.
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Post by gmonte on Oct 31, 2010 17:00:20 GMT 3
As I mentioned before the Volga Bulghars' tradition claims that the name of Attila was Audan. But there is no other source to confirm this. Except maybe the Scandinavian legend of Odin (Ódhinn) - according to Snorri he was a king who came from Tyrkland (land of the Turks) east of river Don. Recently I really came across a post somewhere in the net which suggests that Odin was in fact a Hunnic ruler - perhaps Uldin (ca. 395 - 410). Why not Attila-Audan? And maybe Bleda was the prototype of Baldr? (Just a wild thought!) Is it possible that the Norse myths are based on some obscure memory of real events from the Great Migration period? I have read somewhere (I think it was in O. Spengler's "Decline of the West") that there isn't any signs of the Odin's cult before that time. I think you are on to something here. Uldin....odin..wotan...wodin, From the little bit I have read is that Odin as a god didn't come into existence until the 5th or 6th century.. If you read Paul the Deacons, History of the Lombard’s, Odin sounds like a powerful ruler..more than a god. I haven't looked into Audan or Baldr...It would be interesting to see when they came into existence as gods. As for your Scottish friend, it may be possible he is of hunnish decent. I have been looking at this. We know the Huns served as auxiliary’s in the Roman army. I think they are mentioned as the Cuneus Equitum. A cone shaped (triangle/wedge) Calvary unit. We know from the Emperor Maurice that this is how the Avar and Bulgar units attacked, in a cone shaped charge. There were 47 of these Cuneus Equitum units throughout the empire. According to the “Notitia Dignatum” 400-425 ad, there is a one these Calvary units in Britain, “Cuneus Sarmatarum” From the little bit I have read, nobody know's anything about these Cuneus Equitum. They just seem to appear in documentation around 400 ad. If you plot their location on a map, most of them appear to be stationed along the Danube. gmonte wrote: Are you sure you are translating that right? Is Scyras the Sciri? No, I am not sure. Here is the website of the codes, where it appears ancientrome.ru/ius/library/codex/theod/liber05.htmAny help would be appreciated
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Post by Ardavarz on Nov 1, 2010 2:58:17 GMT 3
I think you are on to something here. Uldin....odin..wotan...wodin, From the little bit I have read is that Odin as a god didn't come into existence until the 5th or 6th century.. If you read Paul the Deacons, History of the Lombard’s, Odin sounds like a powerful ruler..more than a god. I haven't looked into Audan or Baldr...It would be interesting to see when they came into existence as gods. Yes, this is really a fascinating topic. I think it needs more research and careful consideration. Nennius also derives the genealogy of the Anglo-Saxon kings from Woden/Odin. O. Spengler suggests some Graeco-Roman and Near Eastern influences in formation of the Norse mythology, but perhaps a Hunnic one would be more probable. There is indeed many similarities with the Tengrian tradition of the Steppe people - like sacralization of the number 9, a similar cosmogonic myth, the sacred eight-ray star,kurgan burials, deification of fallen heroes etc. Odin is also a horse god and rider, which also brings in mind the Steppe warriors and the symbol of the horse as representation of the life-force (hiimori or "attil"?). And interesting - the Yakuts (Saha) also have a deity called Odun-biis. As for your Scottish friend, it may be possible he is of hunnish decent. I have been looking at this. We know the Huns served as auxiliary’s in the Roman army. I think they are mentioned as the Cuneus Equitum. A cone shaped (triangle/wedge) Calvary unit. We know from the Emperor Maurice that this is how the Avar and Bulgar units attacked, in a cone shaped charge. There were 47 of these Cuneus Equitum units throughout the empire. According to the “Notitia Dignatum” 400-425 ad, there is a one these Calvary units in Britain, “Cuneus Sarmatarum” From the little bit I have read, nobody know's anything about these Cuneus Equitum. They just seem to appear in documentation around 400 ad. If you plot their location on a map, most of them appear to be stationed along the Danube. He was in fact my friend's friend, not mine. And I have listened this story more than ten years ago, so I am not sure what exactly his words were, but I think he said "some Hunnic garrisons in Scotland". So, maybe that is it. I haven't studied this topic and I don't know any details about these Cuneus Equitum, but maybe "Cuneus Sarmatarum" you mention are those featured in Antoine Fuqua's movie "King Arthur" (one of my favorites by the way).
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Post by gmonte on Nov 1, 2010 20:40:51 GMT 3
An interesting side note to your King Arthur legend...I have read a few articles that claim Excalibur...Arthur's Sword that made him invincible..Is actually the same as Attila's sword of Mars/Ares that made him invincible.
You gotta Love/Hate the Dark Ages...So much was happening that we are so unsure of.
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