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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 15, 2010 4:12:19 GMT 3
There is many different interpretations of the meaning of the name Attila. For instance some think this is a German (Gothic) diminutive - "little father". A folk etymology suggests a "calendar nickname" referring to the natal year - 406 or the horse year in the 12 animal cycle. While it is plausible to imagine the existence of some obscure custom to name the child according to his natal year, I frankly doubt that someone would be called literally "year of the horse" (at-jïlï). Prof. Omeljan Pritsak has an interesting theory that the name Attila is derived from two words: *es ("great, old") and *til ("sea, ocean"), thus meaning "the oceanic, universal [ruler]" (cf. Mongolian Chingis Khaan from tengis - "sea"). But maybe this is a too complicated metaphor (the steppe = "sea of grass" = all world etc.). I dare to suggest here another possibility that crossed my mind recently. I believe Prof. Pritsak is right to think that geminated -tt- in the name Attila is a result of assimilation. (This would dismiss another folk etymology associating the name with the river Etil/Volga). Now let's suppose that this is a compound of two words: at (a common Turkic word for "horse") and *dil - which should be the Hunnic word for "wind" (= Turkic jil/yil; cf. Turkic jilan/yilan vs. Hunno-Bulgarian dilom - "snake"). Thus we have the word *attil presumably expressing the same concept as Mongolian hiimori. (lit. "wind-horse") - the force of good luck and personal magnetism inherent to charismatic leaders. With post-positional Dative affix -a/-ä which can express possession it would mean "his horse-wind or life-force" (or lit. "horse-wind of him") in the sense of "His Majesty" - more or less the same basic idea. Thus "Attila" is rather a title than a personal name even though it has become such later on. The same has happened with Mongolian "Chingis" and now people rarely remember that the personal name of Chingis Khaan was Temujin. Maybe we deal with a similar case here. According to the legends of Volga Bulgars the personal name of Attila was in fact Audan of Dulo (the Hunno-Bulgarian imperial clan). This is at least a possibility.
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 15, 2010 5:42:30 GMT 3
Some things to think about. How do you get *dil from yil and what does it have to do with dilom? Chuvash-like sound rules result in y -> s, for example Chuvash śil and the Hungarian loanword szél (from Bulgharian). I notice that Chuvash for snake is śǝʷlen. Semantically, if the concept is supposed to be hiimori, why would the word stem order be switched to horse-wind? Turkic languages, like most left-branching postpositional languages, put the adjective before the noun.
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Post by snafu on Oct 15, 2010 5:55:35 GMT 3
also wasn't the concept of windhorse a much later addition from Tibetan Buddhism? I don't think the idea is native to steppe people. But I could be wrong.
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Post by Subu'atai on Oct 15, 2010 11:53:55 GMT 3
Furthermore I've met some folks whose surname is "Khan" who also reckon they are automatically descendants of Chingghis Khaan. ;D
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 16, 2010 4:32:17 GMT 3
Some things to think about. How do you get *dil from yil and what does it have to do with dilom? Chuvash-like sound rules result in y -> s, for example Chuvash śil and the Hungarian loanword szél (from Bulgharian). I notice that Chuvash for snake is śǝʷlen. Semantically, if the concept is supposed to be hiimori, why would the word stem order be switched to horse-wind? Turkic languages, like most left-branching postpositional languages, put the adjective before the noun. Of course - this is only a speculation. We don't know how the Hunnic word for "wind" has once sounded. "Dilom" has nothing to do with it. It just sounds similar, so I gave it as an illustration of the general rule that initial Turkic y = Hunnic d. See for instance here: s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/13_Oguz_and_Ogur/TurkoSlavicSymbiosisOPritsakEn.htm (in the table under No. 4). Another example is the name of the river Ural - Yaik/Jaik = Hunnic Daik. So I figured out that "wind"in Hunnic could be *dil, but of course we cannot know for sure. (The Hungarian and Chuvash examples you give are obviously derived from the same word - maybe the pronunciation has changed through the centuries?). Then we have this problem with the reverse word order. Such an inversion in compounds is found in Scytho-Sarmatian languages (including Ossetian which is thought to be descendant of Alanic) and it is atypical for Iranian too. See for instance the Alanic name Asparuk (= Bulgarian Esperikh) - it means "[one with] light horse", but it's literally "horse-light" (from Iranian *aspa-raoca) instead of something like "Rukasp" as one could expect from similar Iranian names (cf. Persian Jamasp, Gushtasp, Arjasp etc.). My guess is that Huns, Alans and other tribes in the Western Steppe have formed a linguistic union (Sprachbund) during the period of Great Migration and so their languages have shared many common characteristics. (This could explain also the peculiar Altaic features of Ossetian like agglutination and postpositiveness). So, we can suppose that at least some of the Hunnic words could have the same inverted order. Well, this again is not completely sure - not until we found some more detailed information about the Hunnic grammar. But as I said - the whole thing is just a speculation for now.
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 16, 2010 4:35:01 GMT 3
also wasn't the concept of windhorse a much later addition from Tibetan Buddhism? I don't think the idea is native to steppe people. But I could be wrong. Yes, in Tibetan it is called lung-ta if I remember correctly. But this is not a Buddhist concept - it is not present in the Early Buddhism and Theravada tradition. In fact I am not sure if it exists at all in other Buddhist schools save for Lamaism. I think this can be a steppe idea and here's why: The Mahayana tradition in general has been developed under heavy influence of the culture of steppe people like Sakas in the Kushan Empire, Tokharians and Xiongnu in Eastern Turkestan/Xinjiang and others. And then the horse is usual symbol of the medium animal which transports between the worlds (it has substituted as such the deer from the earlier times), so it is a quite natural metaphor for the life force - and hence the horse burials, sacrifices and other characteristics of the steppe culture.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 19, 2010 13:25:22 GMT 3
See for instance the Alanic name Asparuk (= Bulgarian Esperikh) - it means "[one with] light horse", but it's literally "horse-light" (from Iranian *aspa-raoca) instead of something like "Rukasp" as one could expect from similar Iranian names (cf. Persian Jamasp, Gushtasp, Arjasp etc.). As for as I know, Bulghar Asparukh comes from Sanskrit Īśvara.
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Post by Ardavarz on Oct 20, 2010 2:54:56 GMT 3
See for instance the Alanic name Asparuk (= Bulgarian Esperikh) - it means "[one with] light horse", but it's literally "horse-light" (from Iranian *aspa-raoca) instead of something like "Rukasp" as one could expect from similar Iranian names (cf. Persian Jamasp, Gushtasp, Arjasp etc.). As for as I know, Bulghar Asparukh comes from Sanskrit Īśvara. I've heard that there is such a hypothesis, but Iranian etymology seems to me more plausible. See for instance the article of David Marshal Lang in Encyclopaedia Iranica: www.iranica.com/articles/asparukh-a-middle-iranian-proper-name-attested-in-ancient-georgia-and-early-medieval-bulgaria-grecized-as-asparoukis-appIn addition to Georgian pitiakhsh Asparoukis stated here, there is a Georgian king in 3th century called Aspagur, and also an Armenian name Aspūrak and a Scythian Asfōrougos = *Asfarug (in inscription from Olbia). The Ossetian linguist V. I. Abaev gives many examples of such "inverted" compound names in Scythian and Old Ossetian. I suggest that a similar trend could exist in Hunnic too.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 22, 2010 12:37:22 GMT 3
I see.
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Post by gmonte on Oct 23, 2010 5:34:25 GMT 3
I wouldn't put to much emphasis on the name Attila/Atila, this name comes to us from latin and greek writers, who often corrupted names, the Germanic people called him Etzel. 1) At the time period there was an Atilian law for children whos fathers had died and needed a guardian. 2) Atilia was a famous Roman family that were both plebeians and patricians similar to the Julia or Scippio's. 3) Attalus was a Roman senator that usurped the thrown in 410 ad. 4) Atella was a town in Campania. 5) Atila was a roman town in Bavaria The name Attila has been spelled several different ways by ancient authors; Atila, Atyla,Attila www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camenaref/hofmann/hof1/s0388a.htmlSo what the real name was and the spelling has been lost to time, until we find his grave and hope for some type of writing
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Post by Temüjin on Oct 24, 2010 1:17:58 GMT 3
Jordanes was very likely descendant of Alans so he should have known...
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 24, 2010 5:53:37 GMT 3
Attila to Etzel was a sound change that also occurred in other High German words. The fact that the Norse used Atli in their version of the story reflects that the earlier and more correct version of the name is something like Attila (with no s or z sound) because it traveled around the Germanic world before the High German sound change. Or so according to philologist Michael Babthingy in "The Night Attila Died".
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Post by gmonte on Oct 24, 2010 7:37:08 GMT 3
I agree the name probably sounded like "Attila" to the greek and roman writers.
But remember Jordanes was heavily rewritten by a bishop in the 11th century, because Jordanes spelling and grammer was so poor. Codex A in Milian, the original no longer exist. Priscus's writttings were rewritten in the 10th century, the original no longer exist.
Attila's name was spoken to priscus...now think...if a chinese person spoke a name to you, would you spell it phoentically.
So his name may of actually have been Itil after the river volga or iron. We won't known until a hunnic inscription is found...which I believe the Huns had a form of writting.
By the way is "The Night Attila Died" a good book? I have not read that one yet.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 24, 2010 15:01:26 GMT 3
Welcome aboard gmonte
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Post by hjernespiser on Oct 25, 2010 23:46:23 GMT 3
I liked "The Night Attila Died". Even if you don't agree with the conclusions, the analysis and philological insight is wonderful reading.
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