Influence of Eurasian nomads on Europe

[Kilij Arslan]

Nowadays things are getting better, some scholars for example finally acknowledge the european 'barbaric' heritage of ancient germanic and celtic peoples. And that really is breaking a taboo. First 'parliament' where women had a right to speak and vote was an althing in pagan Iceland, and thas helluva european, yet nothing greek here and definitely nothing christian... Now even some popular science programs (like Discovery and such) finally defy the significance of Greece/Rome, and good riddance

One thing about judaism, originally Jahve was one of many gods, a patron of a certain tribe (and a god of thunder btw), monotheism came with one particular jewish king, don't remember the name. And mind you, Arabs before Islam also had lots of gods as well, and for example many desert dwelling bedouins weren't exactly happy and welcoming towards the idea of monotheism.

As for the thing of fairy tales and rustamic tales, I can't give you specific book titles, because I read only some polish books, so they would be of no use to you and I just don't know english language literature of the subject However, I think that some books of Maria Składankowa were published in english (certainly 'Heroes, gods and demons of ancient Iran' was), you might try to check the library. Anyway, just try to browse some books on literature of Iran, their mythology and ancient religious concepts. I'm afraid I can't help you with when did the Turks projected the topic on Europeans, it could have been through some italian traders, it could have happened even during the time of crusades, I just don't know. I suppose you should just check some folkloristic books on the subject of fairy tales. Don't google, use paper made books Particularly lexicons at first, then move on to some thorough books on iranian myths / european fairy tales.

As for Arabs and steppans... Hmm, basically there are similarities between desert dwellers and steppe dwellers, BUT Arabs is not the same as desert nomads In Oman for example Arabs conducted huge water regulation works and terrace fields, just as it was in China - and thats just not a nomadic type of behavior Desert/Mountain nomads, like Bedouins (I think) and (definitely!!!) Tuareg in Africa for example, would have 'consciousness' of the 'greater life' that surrounds them, just as steppe nomads. It's really a matter of lifestyle; they know that they can't stay too long with their herds in one place, because they can't let them eat too much grass, as the grass needs time to replenish; and they would have strict laws regarding when and where should they herd. These laws were deeply rooted in their tradition, and sometimes even connected with religion. I suppose that's why there are islamic peoples still retaining some old beliefs, but that's not just a matter of only islam. Kalmyks for example, buddhists, do believe that when Buddha created world and creatures a demon came and created the goats, therefore goats are evil! And that is because goats eat too much grass (and too much everything really), their hunger is their demon element. That's why they are not a popular herding animal among steppans. All this belief anyway is clearly pre-buddhist, with Tengri and Erlik competing during creation of the world.

I would say that nomads just have certain inertia of beliefs and traditions. This inertia also means, that if they actually sway to some new religion, they keep to it fervently. And desert ones would be harsher (and sometimes religion-wise, more zealous) then steppans, merely because their 'way of life' was a way of actual survival in even harsher environment, just as reindeer herders in northern Mongolia had harsher customs then Mongols of steppes. The differences between Islam around the world might be based on the difference of a religions place in man's life. 'Institution islam' vs. 'folk islam' might be just because imams (and/or city dwellers, non-traditional farmers) whose survival has nothing to do with old traditions easily shun them, and nomads (or to lesser extent old agricultural peoples who would have their farming rituals also based on tradition and maybe religion) just find that idea unnatural and even dangerous. But that's just my wild guess. Still, iranic peoples islam for example definitely is in many ways more iranic than islamic

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

I believe, it, actually, should be even earlier Scytho-Sarmatian influence. Those hats were typical for Sarmatian women as well, and as we know Alans had spread all over Europe from Britain to Spain.

Interestingly, these kind of hats still survive in Caucasus as a part of traditional women costume that is also claimed to be originated from Sarmatians-Alans.

I see, but I wonder if tall hats were used by European ladies before the Mongol period, because I don't know any

I also want to add a more complicated chapter about the Islam. I'm not sure if what I'm writing is total nonsense, or going to far, but it is interesting:
Originally, Judaism and Christianity came from nomadic people from the desert. It's not strange that they believed in one god if you think that the only thing they saw the whole day was the sun. Later, when Constantine converted the Roman Empire to Christianity this original nomadic religion changed. Later Mohamed founded the Islam, NOT as a new religion, but to restore the original monotheistic religions. Mohamed started his new Islam as a nomad, and united the nomadic tribes of Arabia. In that time the Islam was monotheistic because they believed in one god, but that didn't mean there was nothing more they believed in. They believed in ghosts, ancestors, dreams, and all sorts of superstition. (May I see some sort of connection between Tengriism and Islam here?) But later the Imams began preaching against these beliefs, and just like other monotheistic religions the Islam wasn't what it should have been. And this is very interesting if you look at the Islam now. The Islam of the people is that of Allah, but also of superstition, dreams and ghosts. But the Islam of (some) Imams is that of Allah, the Koran and nothing else.

So my question is, is there some connection between religion of steppe people and the Islam. And aren't the Arab Tribes a lot like the steppe people, although they didn't live on the steppe? In Dutch we don't use the word steppe people often, but we call it horsepeople/cavalry nations. I think the Arabs were certainly a cavalry nation.

Islam was actually a sedentary and merchant religion while it was not ideal for nomads and bedouins. Muhammad was not a nomad, he was a sedentary merchant and the early Muslims had some very hard time converting the Arab bedouins because the belief simply didn't fit them exactly. The same case happened when the nomadic Turks met with Islam. That's why sedentary Muslim Turks had more orthodox belifs while nomadic Muslim Turks retained more of their pre-Islamic belifs (some nomadic Muslim Turks, for example, knew only about Allah and Muhammad while they had no idea about the rest of the religion).

[sarmat]

Sept 26, 2010 21:30:49 GMT 3 H. İhsan Erkoç said:

I believe, it, actually, should be even earlier Scytho-Sarmatian influence. Those hats were typical for Sarmatian women as well, and as we know Alans had spread all over Europe from Britain to Spain.

Interestingly, these kind of hats still survive in Caucasus as a part of traditional women costume that is also claimed to be originated from Sarmatians-Alans.

I see, but I wonder if tall hats were used by European ladies before the Mongol period, because I don't know any

Yes, you're probably right. According to the information I found those hats first appeared in Burgundy in the 14th century. Thus, chronologically Mongolian influence makes more sense than Sarmato-Alanian. Though, Kypchaks also had those hats...

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

Yes, that's true as well

[Temüjin]

John the Fearless who later became Duke of Burgundy participated and was captured at Nicopolis 1396, that's the only possible explanation if there is a steppe influence.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

With that gigantic Golden Horde just east of Europe, I think that is not very likely

[yesughei]

Hello everyone. It has been a while, and I have been working really hard on my project. I decided the topic was, as said before, way too big. So now it's only about the influence of the Mongol empire on Europe. I formulated the following research questions (quickly translated from Dutch):

-The Mongols are generally seen as barbarians. Were they barbarians? Where does this view of barbaric mongols originate? What kind of view does the rest of the world have about the Mongol conquests?
in the middle ages the mongols were not at all seen as barbarians, they were the example of civilization. Negative view of Mongols originated in the age of enlightenment. Genghis Khan as nationalistic symbol in Mongolia, suppressed by Sovjet Russia. Also in other parts of Asia (India, Japan)

-What inventions and developments did the Mongols bring to Europe. How did this stimulate the renaissance?
pax mongolica, inventions (like canon), Marco Polo. Italian merchants took advantage of Mongole campaign in Europa (slave trade)

-What was the effect of the Mongol campaign in Europe?
effect on Poland and Russia, almost a crusade, death of European knights at the battle of Legnica in relation to end of feudalism

-The Yasa was in many ways very modern. How modern was the Mongol empire? Did this influence Europe? Another interesting part is the position of women in the Mongol Empire.
Many examples here. The khan had to obey the yasa, power of women, no criminality, trade routes, etc. Mongol empire was very modern, but did this influence Europe? I don't think so. Europe was not ready for it.

-Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Shamanism were all very important in the Mongol empire. Did these religions influence each other during the Mongol empire?
difficult one. The crusades of course. Mix between Buddhism and Shamanism. I don't think any of this influenced Europe.

-The Mongol conquest is not the only example of a war between nomads and sedentary civilizations. What is the bigger context of this war? This "eternal" war has influenced the world more than we might think.
Starting with Cain and Abel a constant battle between nomands and peasants. Many examples.

I roughly answered these questions but I am very curious what you have to say about it. ;D

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

death of European knights at the battle of Legnica in relation to end of feudalism

I never tought the defeat at Legnica contributed to the end of feudalism in Europe. This actually happened a few centuries later.

[Ardavarz]

About these topics you can check Lev Gumilev's book "Searches for an Imaginary Kingdom". It's one of his best works in my opinion. Here is an English translation:
gumilevica.kulichki.net/English/sik.htm

Or also "The Black Legend" (in Russian):
gumilevica.kulichki.net/articles/bl.html

[Subu'atai]

Dec 25, 2010 15:28:26 GMT 3 yesughei said:

in the middle ages the mongols were not at all seen as barbarians, they were the example of civilization. Negative view of Mongols originated in the age of enlightenment. Genghis Khan as nationalistic symbol in Mongolia, suppressed by Sovjet Russia. Also in other parts of Asia (India, Japan)

Errr... what what what?

[sarmat]

Yeah, sounds like nonsense...

[yesughei]

Dec 27, 2010 6:48:56 GMT 3 sarmat said:

Yeah, sounds like nonsense...

During and shortly after the Mongol conquests Europe was afraid of course, but the Mongol empire was also seen as a highly developed civilization. There was peace in this empire, trade flourished. Marco Polo went to China and was amazed by the culture. Columbus discovered America by accident when he was trying to reach Cathay (Yuan). Chaucer wrote in the Canterbury tales a tale about Genghis Khan which started like this:

"This noble king was called Genghis Khan
Who in his time was of so great renown
That there was nowhere in no region
So excellent a lord in all things."

There are many examples. The point is that later in history Mongols were seen as barbarians, why? It is a theory that this originated in the age of enlightenment. People rejected absolutism, and what is THE example of an absolute monarchy? Genghis Khan of course. And because it was still dangerous to write about the king, writers started to use Genghis Khan to write about instead of the king. Voltaire wrote a famous play called "the orphan of China":

“The king of kings, the fiercy Genghis Khan. Who lays the fertile fields of Asia waste.”
Montesquieu also wrote very negative about the Mongols in general.

It is, of course, a theory, but an interesting one. I hope you guys can give me something more than "sounds like nonsense"

Ardavarz, thanks for the link! I was still looking for more information on this topic!

[Subu'atai]

Peace, tolerance, trade, stability, civilisation, etc has been documented sure but from my knowledge only by a few individuals, such as Marco Polo as you mentioned and Christian missionaries (who were actually whining about the religious tolerance since "infidels" were living together - even during the Khanates era)

But there has been no evidence of any real regard of the Mongols being anything more then "barbarians" throughout European "medieval popular culture" (from lack of better words to describe that particular phenomenom) nor European historians during that era.

[Ardavarz]

This reminds me a passage from the Song of the Nibelungs:


The sovereignty of Etzel was own’d so far and wide
That at his court were met with, at very time and tide,
The bravest of all warriors whose names were known to fame
‘Mongst Christians or heathens: all thither to him came.

With him there was at all times – which scarce again can come –
The Christian confession along with heathendom.
Whatever rule of living each for himself might have,
The king’s mood was so easy, plenty to all he gave.


A rare example of appreciation of the way of living in the kingdom of Huns in Attila's time.

[H. İhsan Erkoç]

That's cool