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Post by Azadan Januspar on Nov 3, 2010 2:17:06 GMT 3
I wonder why the englishman who travled to safavid empire during their regin thought they were persian, even if the spoke azeri turkish in court, even the ottomans who were called turks were more persianzed than the safavids, how come still they were considerd persian, or are they persian? They didn't call themselves Persians and considered themselves Shahs of Iran ( they also were called by sufi't titles ), and the term "Persian" for "Iranians"used in itineraries of European travellers is obviously a continuation of a wrong tradition pobably started by Greeks. Safi-Adin Ardabili is primarily considered to be a remanant of speakres of old Azari language of province of Azarbayjan, he lived in the late mongol era. in the same book Safwat-as Safa there are some direct quotations of him speaking in what is probably were Old Ardabili Azari language. As a matter of fact the major replacement of Iranian by tribal Turkmen languages took place by the time of Ismail, as one can see that he have peoms in Turkish. Safavids rose to power with notable help of Turkmen tribes like Qizilbashs and they widley used a Turkish dialect in their court. Right, but don't forget the term azeri Turk also means " half Turkish half Iranian" Strange, I don't think such a discussion is an act of spamming. ?!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2011 4:28:38 GMT 3
Azerbaijan by that time were already largely Shia by the exception of Shirvan, while Iran were Sunni. And that is why Safavids rose in first place, because of Shia Turcoman tribes of Azerbaijan.
Shah Ismail together with Shia Turcoman tribes of Azerbaijan (and Anatolia) whom referred to themselves as "Qizilbash" (Azeri for "Red Head") defeats Aq-Qoyunlu at the Battle of Sharur in Nakhchivan and thus lays establishment of Safavids on the territority of Azerbaijan. Territority of Iran are later conqured by Safavids through wars, and the population converted to Shia.
Safavid official language; Court and Military: Azerbaijani Turkish / Administrative: Persian. This is no disputed by anyone.
Geographical establishment of Safavids: Ardebil, Azerbaijan. First capital of Safavids: Tabriz, Azerbaijan. The capital later moved to Isfahan because of Azerbaijan's approximation to Ottoman territorities.
Military of Safavids: Qizilbash, Shia Turcoman tribes of Azerbaijan and Anatolia.
Military titles in Safavids: Khan, Beglerbegi, Qizilbash, Qullar, Eshik Aghasibashi, Qorchu, Qorchubashi, Yasavul, Kanuqibashi, Chalchibashi. As you see, all in Azerbaijani Turkish.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Oct 29, 2011 1:02:08 GMT 3
Thanks for the informations.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Oct 29, 2011 19:13:57 GMT 3
Actually a few of those titles are of Mongolian origin, such as Qorču (Mong. Qorči) and Yasavul (Mong. Yasaul). The rest are Turkic indeed. Useage of Mongol titles was quite common in the Post-Ilkhanid and Post-Chaghataid areas, such as among the Safavids, Ottomans, Aqqoyunlus, Qaraqoyunlus and other Turkoman principalities of Iran and Anatolia.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2011 19:37:14 GMT 3
Your ex-shah, Muhammad Reza Pahlavis mother was also Azeri Turk, His wife Farah Diba was half Gilaki half Azeri. So Pahlavi Dynasty was Turk, wasn't it? ;D Not only him but his father, Reza Shah's mother was also of Azeri Turk origin, Nushaferin Ayrumlu, from northern Azerbaijan. And yeah, we can probably go by that logic. ;D
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Nov 1, 2011 16:01:07 GMT 3
That's clear Reza Shah was able to speak Turkish too. But I don't seem to think that made him look that way. People of Azarbaijan province, Azerbaijani republic of today have played important role so far in history of Iran especially from Safavid era to contemporary times in which Russian empire colonial interests trying to distort their common heritage, achieved some of its goals.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2011 1:16:03 GMT 3
I don't know what that means but; Anyone who promted any nationalistic feelings during Russian empire, was either jailed or exiled. It was even much more harsher after Bolshevik take over. The Turkic nationalism ideology was first formed by Azerbaijani and Tatar intellectuals in Russian empire. For instance, one of the founders of Pan-Turkism ideology, Ahmed Ağaoğlu and Ali Bey Huseynzade. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmet_A%C4%9Fao%C4%9Fluen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_bey_HuseynzadeSO in fact, the Pan-Turkism ideology in Turkey was spread from Azerbaijan. Contrary to the popular belief. The Latin alphabet also TUrkey now uses are taken from Azerbaijan. It was created in Azerbaijan as a common alphabet for all of Turkic peoples in Russian empire in 1922. It was called "Yeni Türk Əlifbası" or "New Turk Alphabet". The roots of Turkic idenity in Azerbaijan pre-dates that of Turkey, and was neither promted by any outside force, but opposite, it was strictly forbidden by Russians.
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Post by Atabeg on Nov 4, 2011 14:38:58 GMT 3
kirmanji is also the main Kurdish dialect is that related.
Somewhere I read that Shah Ismail was related to Charlemange trough his great-grandmother...
The ottomans called the region Acem/ajem = persia(n). The same is with persian rugs whom are made by Turkic nomads or were made by them but the ottomans called them Acem kilimi/ halisi which translates as Persian rugs.
The safavis called Anatolia Rûm which means rome/roman.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 4, 2011 16:04:08 GMT 3
Shah Ismail wrote several poems in Azerbaijani language.
He, under the name "Khatai", was after Imadeddin Nasimi and Fuzuli, the one that contributed to literary developement of Azeri Turkish.
Also the famous letter he wrote to Sultan Yavuz before battle of Chaldiran, he wrote it in Azeri Turkish.
"Mən pirimi haqq bilirəm Yoluna qurban oluram Dün doğuldum bugün ölləm Ölən gəlsin budur meydan"
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Nov 6, 2011 20:52:52 GMT 3
That's true, the Turkish Latin Alphabet adopted in 1928 was adopted from the Azerbaijani Latin Alphabet.
Kirmanji or Kurmanj or whateveritis is indeed the most populous Kurdish dialect, categorized as the northern dialect of Kurdish. Sorani is southern for example, and spoken in northeastern Iraq.
Yup, from a Byzantine-Aqqoyunlu marriage.
Actually calling Iranians (not just Persians) Acem was originally an Arabic thing, as the Arabs called the Iranians 'Ajam meaning "Bad/rookie speaker" because after the Arabic conquest of Iran, the Persians at the beginning were believed to have not spoken Arabic very well (I don't know if this is a historical fact or just a myth). Similar to how Slavic peoples designated German-speakers.
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Post by Azadan Januspar on Nov 6, 2011 21:17:07 GMT 3
yeah it's also interesting that Sheikh Saffidin was also into poetry and he poetized poems in Iranian dialect which is believed to be the Iranian Azari.
Ajam meant for them as someone who is unable to speak, of course there their language was semitic and Iranian an indo-european language, way too less in common.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 22:26:00 GMT 3
;D
One of his poem in Azerbaijani Turkish (Safiaddin Ardabili).
Qılınc baği dutubdur gözlərim, saqi, kədu gəltur, Vurubdur təpəməcən xüm qanından bir səbu gəltur. Lalə dodaqlar sinəmdə açılmış, Gözüm qanını olmaz bağlamaq camı dolu gəltur.
Ağaclar sarmaşıb qəddindən ayrı zar ağlarlar, Sızıldarlar pərirulər kimi təkrar ağlarlar.
Göyərçin yolladım, yazdım sənə səndən şikayətlər, Qolunda ol qanadlardır başı bağlı kitabətlər.
Unudma aşiqi, namehriban olma, mənim canım, İşıqsız sərvə oxşarlar vəfasız sərvqamətlər.
Səni tanrı, necə səndən şikayət etməyim axır, Hanı ol nazlı baxmaqlar, hanı gizlin işarətlər.
Hanı zalim, hanı gözüm, hanı kafir, hanı canım? Sevişməklər, barışmaqlar, təpişməklər, qucuşmaqlar!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 23:03:38 GMT 3
In one of these Safwat as-Safa script, Shaykh Safi al-Din was called "Ay Tork-e Pir"(Oh The Saint of Turks). He really was called that way, Ey Tork-e Pir.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 15:52:09 GMT 3
By the way "Azadan", you should know that "Azeri" term for people of Azerbaijan was not used untill very recently, since you are basing your arguments upon it. In Iran regular people still use "Tork", not "Azari", but it was changed into "Azari" afterwards officially, however people still use Tork. When you say to someone from Tabriz what langauge they speak, they say "Torki". Persians also use the same thing. We can see that from Russian Empire period Azerbaijani Turks were referred to as Tatar, there was nothing as "Azeri" around. For instance, we can see that from early 1900s the wars between Azerbaijani Turks and Armenians are referred to as "Armenian-Tatar wars". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian%E2%80%93Tatar_massacres_of_1905%E2%80%931907But we do know before that, our ethnicity name were Turk or Turkmen-Turkoman.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 16:06:17 GMT 3
A good example from what Mirza Alakpar Sabir wrote in 1800s.
“Osmanlıcadan tərcümə türkə” – bunu bilməm, Gerçək yazıyor gəncəli, yainki hənəkdir; Mümkün iki dil bir-birinə tərcümə, amma “Osmanlıcadan tərcümə türkə” nə deməkdir?!
He says;
What means translating from Ottoman language to Turkish (Azerbaijani), I do not understand. It is possible to translate 2 languages, BUT What means translating from Ottoman language to Turkish.
From his written text we can actually understand that the langauge spoken in Turkey was called as "Ottoman", while that in Azerbaijan was called as Turkish or Turk.
And he also says that Ottoman language are also Turkish, so how can you translate something from Turkish to Turkish.
Anyway, this was just an example.
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