I wonder why the bulgar that were left in volga bulgaria are today called tatars , tatarstan, I mean they arent tatars, isnt tatars a people who lived close to the wall in china, they are mongolic and not turkic I presume ,
how come tatars that disappeared after djingiz khans invasion got the name of a turkic people today
Post by H. Ihsan Erkoc on Jun 9, 2010 13:19:25 GMT 3
Will move the thread
As for your question: yes, the original Tatars were a nomadic people (their identity is still not enlightened - they might have been Mongolic, Turkic or both) that lived in southeastern Mongolia, near the Chinese border. After the fall of the Uyghur Qaghanate, the Tatars seem to have become the strongest people in the region (excluding the Kitans), because their name became a common named used by the Chinese for many different Turko-Mongol peoples living in Mongolia and southern Siberia (the Yenisei Basin); or maybe they were the only major nomadic people the Chinese had contact with, because at that time China did not have that much contact and interest on the steppes due to its own political situation. After Temüjin Khan (the Chinggis Khan of the future) defeated these Tatars who had previously murdered his father, he distributed Tatars among other Turko-Mongol peoples under his rule and the Tatars ceased to exist as a separate people, even though we have evidence that they did not disappear completely and individual Tatars kept their ethnic Tatar identities along with their political Mongol identity.
Because the name Tatar was already in use for many different Turko-Mongol peoples, when the Mongols reached Turkestan and Russia, they were usually known as Tatars, even though the name Mongol was also known and used. As the Mongol Empire grew larger, all its subjects were called Tatar. That's why the Volga Bulghars and Qypchaqs got the name Tatar too, because they were under Mongol rule for a long time.
I know because I was interested in that question myself and did some reseach. And why is it so surprising? Lipka Tatar were a military class and that kept them separately from the rest of the neighboring people. Now that distinction doesn't exist anymore. Their Islamic faith is also shaken by the long year of Communist rule. So, there no really anything that would keep them separately for a long time. I'm pretty sure, there won't be Lipka Tatars in the 22d century
Here is the video briefly descibing the situation of Lipka Tatars in Poland. Lithuania and Belarus aren't different from that.
Hi,Interesting Treat,I didn´t knew that it was here. I am agree with the Ihsan statmenet about the Volga Bulghars,Kypchaks an other people living in the region.It actually happened the same like with the European Huns of Attila.Many diferent nations were under one rule -in this case the Mongol.Volga Bulgaria suffered many changes after the 13-th century.It was called the Kazan Khanate after that and later one Ivan Grozny conquered it.So it was subjects of political interests of Russia and it´s imperial ambitions.I don´t believe anyone there cares if this region keeps is original name Volga Bulgaria or it´s called Tatarstan.Just the Bulgars which are there.It was the son of the great Kubrat Kotrag who established the Volga Bulgaria there for the first time in 7 century A.C.
Wait a minute. Did these people that lived near China call themselves tatars? Tatar or tartar is the prison of the titans in greek mythology. The europeans thought the mongol invasion consisted of demons. Isn't that the origin of the word?
I think "Tatar" was derived from Turkic Tat - "foreigner". First it meant not-Turk, and later - not-Muslim. Paradoxically later the Russians began to apply the appellation "Tatar" to all Muslims under their rule. Thus Chechens for instance became "Caucasian Tatars" etc., while in Western Europe "Tatar" was usually synonym of "Mongol". It is a so misused term that hardly means anything anymore.
As I know the word tatar comes from old chinese ta-ta - dog face, and the ar suffix, means dog face people. Hungarian sources calles the mongols as dog faced tatars as well. The tatars fought in the first rows of the mongolian army, thats why many european sources mixes them up. After the mongolian conquests the tatars mixed up with the local population of central asia.