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Post by Kilij Arslan on Mar 10, 2010 21:57:52 GMT 3
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 11, 2010 0:13:55 GMT 3
I've read that PDF before. Good stuff.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 11, 2010 23:45:59 GMT 3
Thanks dear Kilij Arslan  |
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Post by hjernespiser on Mar 19, 2010 23:32:53 GMT 3
BTW, burkhan is a generic word for god or deity. In Tyvan it is burgan.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 20, 2010 13:50:47 GMT 3
Yes, it actually comes from Uyghur Burqan which was the Turkified version of Sanskrit Buddha. The -qan partical is the well-known title Khan. The Turfanese Uyghurs used that word both as Burqan and Burqan Täŋri, showing us that they continued their pre-Buddhist Täŋri concept even though in original Buddhism, such a concept doesn't exist at all.
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altais
Är
NOMAD HUNTER!
Posts: 16
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Post by altais on Jan 18, 2012 14:36:05 GMT 3
Yes, it actually comes from Uyghur Burqan which was the Turkified version of Sanskrit Buddha. The -qan partical is the well-known title Khan. The Turfanese Uyghurs used that word both as Burqan and Burqan Täŋri, showing us that they continued their pre-Buddhist Täŋri concept even though in original Buddhism, such a concept doesn't exist at all. Oh my God! Ee burkhan min! I never thought the word Burkhan is connected to Turkic. Your explanation is quite buying! Bur+khan=buddha. Gur+khan=Khan of All men! Something possible. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 19, 2012 11:43:11 GMT 3
Yup, that's the same case The Ancient Turks used Qan (Khan) for some toponyms as well, especially mountain names in Mongolia and southern Siberia. Examples are Ötükän (the sacred political center of Turkic empires as well as of later Mongols, thought to be derived from Ötüg [Prayer] + Qan) and Qadïrqan (the Khingan mountains, derived from Qadïr [Tough] + Qan). |
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altais
Är
NOMAD HUNTER!
Posts: 16
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Post by altais on Jan 19, 2012 16:37:44 GMT 3
Yup, that's the same case The Ancient Turks used Qan (Khan) for some toponyms as well, especially mountain names in Mongolia and southern Siberia. Examples are Ötükän (the sacred political center of Turkic empires as well as of later Mongols, thought to be derived from Ötüg [Prayer] + Qan) and Qadïrqan (the Khingan mountains, derived from Qadïr [Tough] + Qan). thanks for enlightenment! I wanna recall various modern mongolian names for places and their connection to turkic. We still think it's mongolian, and understand the meaning. Otgontenger- a sacred mountain of central Khangai mountains. Otgon- Modern mongolian (MM) meaning is the youngest in the family. Let's see what happens if you look deeper. Ot=od-star (MM) but it did have a meaning of fire in older times in Mongolian. gon=khan little bit converted coz of the pre-word. Od+khan=odkhan= did have a meaning of prince of fire in that times. Nomads thought the youngest boy should stay at home to take everything from parents. That's why, the youngest son was the King of fire. Otgon could have derived from OD+KHAN, or otugen, you mentioned. Tonkil= the of the place where my father was born in the western mongolia. There is a small lake. People call it TONKIL. It does not a meaning in MM, but it sounds as if it's usual word. Ton-frozen in Old Turkic? Kul-lake Ton+kul-Tonkil=a frozen lake? This place is located well above 2000 m of see level, right between the Altai mountains. Tayan mountain is also very close to this lake. Sutai, Aj bogd, Naryn, Atas, Tsakir, Idren, Tamcha, Sevrei, Har azarga etc. Do you have any idea? Har azarga=Black stallion (MM) Altai |
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Post by Ardavarz on Jan 20, 2012 0:33:57 GMT 3
Yup, that's the same case The Ancient Turks used Qan (Khan) for some toponyms as well, especially mountain names in Mongolia and southern Siberia. Examples are Ötükän (the sacred political center of Turkic empires as well as of later Mongols, thought to be derived from Ötüg [Prayer] + Qan) and Qadïrqan (the Khingan mountains, derived from Qadïr [Tough] + Qan). I wonder if this could be related to the name of the earth goddess Etügen. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 20, 2012 12:05:15 GMT 3
Actually Ötüg (prayer) and Ot (fire) are two different words in Old Turkic. Though as you said, there was indeed a "Prince of Fire" concept among ancient Turks and Mongolians. According to the Persian historian Juvayni, the brother of Sultan Osman (Uthman), the Qarakhanid ruler of Samarkand between 1204-1212, had the title Otagin which is actually Ot Tigin ("Fire Prince"). We also have plenty of examples of the useage of Otčigin among the Mongols. The Iranian historian Rashiduddin Fazlullah explained that the Mongolian title Otčigin was formed from the union of the words Ot and Tigin (thus this making the title a Turkic loanword in Mongolian), meaning "Lord of Fireplace" and "the youngest son of the family who stayed at home". Plus, according to the Secret History of the Mongols, Temüge, the famous brother of Genghis Khan, had the title Otčigin Noyan which was recorded by Juvayni as Otagin Noyan and by Rashiduddin as Otchi Noyan. Interestingly enough, the 9th century Chinese encyclopedia Tong-dian 通典 gives us an interesting information regarding the titles of the Gokturks (Tu-jue 突厥); according to it, among their titles, there was one called Yi Ke-han 遺可汗 (reconstructed as Äb Qaġan, "House Ruler") which ment "Ruler of the House/Location". This title ranked below the famous Turkic title Yabġu and was used for the families of the imperial tribe that stayed at the center of the empire and were not given any duties nor lands in the countryside.
True, it makes sense, it can be derived from Ton Köl.
Hmm it's hard to say, some of them sound Mongolian and some of them sound a bit Turkic to me :/
Indeed, the later Mongols adopted the Turkic toponym Ötükän as Eke Etügen (Mother Earth), but this concept lived together with the real Mongol cult of earth, Qajar, as can be seen in the Secret History of the Mongols. Because the Turks believed that Ötükän was a sacred place as it was the seat of legitimate rulership, this sacred feeling passed to the later Mongols.
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Post by Ardavarz on Jan 20, 2012 23:14:38 GMT 3
Thanks for the explanation! I couldn't relate the facts together before (if the name of the earth goddes alludes to the original land of the Turks, it wouldn't be its original name, and if it's subsequent, why it is remembered in Mongolian, not in Turkic etc.). Now it makes much more sense to me. |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 23, 2012 12:59:55 GMT 3
You're welcome |
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