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Post by abdulhay on Dec 17, 2009 9:18:45 GMT 3
Hi, I wonder if the Asian huns also known as Xiong nu had any grand assembly like the gökturks, u know a gurultai
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 18, 2009 22:10:34 GMT 3
Greetings Abdulhay, welcome aboard  Yes, they had an assembly of dignitaries and statesmen, of whom the ruler Chan-yu would consult before giving decisions. There is an example of that in Han-shu, in the passage which describes Mo-du Chan-yu's consultation to his dignitaries before he was answering the demands of the Dong-hu. |
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Post by kenmirzz on Dec 19, 2009 4:00:24 GMT 3
Greeting Mr Ihsan.
May I know what's the demand of the Dong-Hu at that time? Dong Hu was the Xianbei tribes and proto-Mongolic right?
I read that Chinggis Khaan was applying similar concept of Kuriltai Assembly in the Bank of Onon River, Mongolia. Could he be adopting a GokTurk policy in his administration?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 19, 2009 13:23:32 GMT 3
Greetings Mr. Kenmirzz,
After Mo-du 冒頓 killed his father Tou-man 頭曼, he became the new Chan-yu (ruler). The Dong-hu sent kept sending him envoys, demanding some of his personal belongings each time, such as his favorite horse, his favorite wife, etc. Each time, Mo-du's advisors told him to ignore the demands and declare war on the Dong-hu, but Mo-du refused. The last Dong-hu envoy delivered the demands of a little piece of unfertile land on the Hun--Dong-hu border; this time, the advisors told Mo-du to give up the land because it was useless. However, Mo-du declined, saying that the previous demands were all for his personal belongings, but this time the Dong-hu demanded something that belonged to the Hunnic people. Thus, Mo-du declined the demand, declared war on the Dong-hu and defeated them in battle. After his victory, the Dong-hu were separated into two groups who fled infront of the Huns - the Dong-hu that went to the *Serbi (Xian-bei 鮮卑) mountain became known as *Serbi, and the other Dong-hu that went to the Wu-huan 烏桓 mountain became known as the Wu-huan. The tribes that belonged to the *Serbi people became different peoples in several centuries, including the Tabghach (Tuo-ba 拓拔) Shi-wei (of whom the real "Mongols" were a tribe of them) 室韋, Kitans, Tatabï (Xi 奚) etc, of whom we know that all were Mongolic peoples. The Tabghach vocabulary recorded in Chinese sources is mostly Turkic, which is from their mixing with the Huns, but there is an amount of Mongolian words as well, which were probably the remains of their original language from the *Serbi period. Thus, we can say the Mongols (or "Proto-Mongols") have been in existence at least since the 3rd century BC, but of course it goes beyond that, but I know nothing about the origins of the Dong-hu before that time.
The Mongols largely copied Turkic (mostly Uyghur, who got it from the Gokturks - that system goes deep to the Asian Huns) administration system.
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Post by kenmirzz on Dec 19, 2009 18:24:58 GMT 3
Thank you sir.
You have cleared a lot of my blurry knowledge Mr Ihsan.
Why the Dong Hu forwarded such ludicrous demand to Modu Shanyu, even demanding his wife? Could it be that they saw themselves as heir to the throne too? Modu Shanyu initial refusal to launch an attack on them was based on this premise or he felt the insufficiency of his military might at that time to confront the Dong Hu?
Yes, the Mongols copied many Turkic traditions. After all, they were living side by side for centuries and intermingled.
Thank you again, sir.
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Post by sarmat on Dec 20, 2009 9:27:36 GMT 3
Until the time of Modu Chanyu, Donghu were stronger. So, Xiongnu had to comply with their demands.
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Post by ceonni on Dec 21, 2009 10:37:19 GMT 3
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Dec 21, 2009 15:35:30 GMT 3
Uhm, I thought the Tie-fu Huns were different from the Tabghach (Tuo-ba Xian-bei)  |
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Post by abdulhay on Jan 2, 2010 3:47:19 GMT 3
thanks for the answers,
so conlusion is that qurultai comes from asian huns to gökturks or?
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jan 2, 2010 23:18:28 GMT 3
Yes, the Gokturks mostly copied Asian Hunnic state organisation (the titles were different though); the Uyghurs copied it from the Gokturks, and the Mongols acquired an important amount of it from the Uyghurs.
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Post by abdulhay on Jan 3, 2010 22:56:36 GMT 3
I see, thanks, I got clerified many things, in wikipedia it says it wasent qurultai but something else that decieded the next shanyu,
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Post by scythian on Aug 22, 2010 2:55:29 GMT 3
The only evidence linking the Nu to the Huns was that they both MIGHT have spoken Turk(the Huns were Turks, I am making a ruling on this now, the controversy is over), and that they had slightly similar names.
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Yes, they had an assembly of dignitaries and statesmen, of whom the ruler Chan-yu would consult before giving decisions. There is an example of that in Han-shu, in the passage which describes Mo-du Chan-yu's consultation to his dignitaries before he was answering the demands of the Dong-hu.
