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Post by sarmat on Aug 31, 2009 21:31:45 GMT 3
I'm reading a new Russian book right now about the origins of Cossacks.
The idea is that Cossacks originated from a Slavo-Sarmato-Turkic semi-nomadic population of the prepontic region mainly along big regional rivers like Don, Dniper and Dnister that heavily mixed with Circassian refugees that migrated to the region after Mongol and later Timur invasions.
In fact, the whole Kuban region was named Kassogia/Kassokhia in some Byzantine chronicles.
And Kasogs is also a name of Cirkassians from Ancient Russian chronicles.
So, according to this theory the name "Cossack" originate from "Kasog" rather than from Turkic "Kazak."
It's interesting that Cossack were also called sometimes Circassians in Russian chronicles, which can be used a supporting evidence for this theory.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 1, 2009 0:28:51 GMT 3
But the very concept of Cossackdom points to being a Qazaq - "Freemen" or "Free wanderer"
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Post by sarmat on Sept 1, 2009 19:37:50 GMT 3
True. But, this concept by itsself doesn't negate that hypo above. It also could be that the name "Kassog" could become confused with "Qazag" by the neighboring Turkic tribes. But I think that Circassian-Cossack connection is quite interesting. I always thought why, for example, most Cossack clothes like Papakhas www.misspedia.org/Papakha.htmlresemble rather Circassian clothes than the clothes of the neighboring Tatars. It would be more natural if Cossacks were wearing hats similar to those of Crimean and Nogay Tatars. But, it seems, that already in the very oldest descriptions of Cossacks, they were described wearing papakhas which are typical Caucasian/Circassian hats, but weren't used by Tatars. And also, ancient Circassians were skillfull pirates, which is not typical at all for Tatars, but is very typical for Don and Zaporozhian Cossacks...
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Post by Atabeg on Sept 1, 2009 20:21:10 GMT 3
sounds verry similar to papak wich is another word for kalpak. The Karapapaks (blackhats) are a sub-branch of the azeris. they are nomads who lived in the areas Dagestand-Ardahan(turkey)-Azerbaycan. Another word for karapapak is terekeme (wich means Turkmen).
the hat looks the same 2
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Post by sarmat on Sept 1, 2009 21:23:50 GMT 3
Right, what I mean is that this type of hat has been very popular among the tribes of Caucasus (Interestingly it's also a traditional Turkmen hat). But, I don't recall that Tatars were wearing similar kind of hat.
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Post by Temüjin on Sept 1, 2009 21:32:00 GMT 3
is there any real evidence or is it just playing with words? i don't think it is likely that Circassians would migrate north due to the Mongol invasions because a. they still stayed in their traditional areas and b. Mongols pretty fast conquered all of those lands which makes a migration pointless. there's also no evidence that there was any Slavic population so far south in the 13th century, nor that any Sarmats were still there, in fact Alans lived further south in the Northern Caucasus. and i don't give so much weight to the Papak, no one ever claimed Cossacks were a 100% copy of Crimean Tatars and the Papak is not exactly a unique headgear nor was it universally worn.
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Post by sarmat on Sept 1, 2009 21:57:39 GMT 3
Of course there is. Kassogs inhabitted much larger areas than they inhabit now. Like I said it was called Kassogia by Byzantines, now it's Kuban region.
There is absolutely evidence that there was Slavic population. They were called Brodniks, apparently, they were Slavics based on the Russian chronicles, but they had unique features and for some reasons they prefered to join Mongols in the battle of Kalka river. French amsassador to the Horde Robruque describes numerous Brodniks setttlements on Don in the 13th century, there was also a Russian principality Tmutarkan on Taman peninsula. That had Slavic population up until the 15th century. And BTW Tmutarkan Slavic population was also heavilty mixed with Kassogs and had also some Alan admixture.
Migration of Kassogians to the North is also supported by evidence. They even founded cities in Ukraine that were called Cherkassy (Circassians).
In fact, Circassians migrated as far as Romanian principalities and some local noble families have Circassian origins.
Finally, in fact, this theory is directly supported by the book of one of the most famous Russian historian Tatishev.
I'm giving directly the quote from his book.
Ïåðâûå êîçàêè, çáðîä èç ÷åðêåñ ãîðñêèõ, â êíÿæåíèè Êóðñêîì â 14 ñò. ÿâèëèñü; ãäå îíè ñëîáîäó ×åðêàñû ïîñòðîèëè è ïîä çàùèòîé òàòàðñêèõ ãóáåðíàòîðîâ âîðîâñòâîì è ðàçáîÿìè ïðîìûøëÿëè; ïîòîì ïåðåøëè íà Äíåïð è ãîðîä ×åðêàññû íà Äíåïðå ïîñòðîèëè.
— Â. Í. Òàòèùåâ, Èñòîðèÿ Ðîññèéñêàÿ, Ì.-Ë. 1963, ò. II, ñòð. 240
First cossacks, mob originated from mountain Circassians appeared first in Kurks principality in the 14th century, where they built Cherkassy settlement and were engaged in robbery and thief under protection of Tatar governors, then they crossed Dnieper and built the city of Cherkassy on Dnieper.
V.N. Tatishev, Russian history, M.-L. 1963, volume II, page 240
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Sept 1, 2009 22:26:56 GMT 3
Hmm but well, are we sure that the Papak was a local Caucasian headgear? Did the Caucasians wear those before?
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Post by Atabeg on Sept 2, 2009 0:30:39 GMT 3
I'd like to know that 2. Sarmat you said the papak was popular amongst the caucasian tribes, but do you know when it got popular? what i allso like to know is how old is this outfit and it's history in the caucasus
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Post by sarmat on Sept 2, 2009 1:42:49 GMT 3
Well. Papak or Papakha as it is in Russian still in fact is a very traditional part of the costume of Caucasian tribes.
I tried to search for the sources of on the history of Papakhas but I haven't found anything definite yet.
However, once I heard that Circassians originally adobted their traditional costume (just like on the picture you posted) including Papakha from Khazars. But, I'm not sure what exactly is the source of that claim.
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Post by ceonni on Sept 2, 2009 4:12:14 GMT 3
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Post by sarmat on Sept 2, 2009 5:54:51 GMT 3
How do these wikipedia links help our discussion?
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Post by ceonni on Sept 2, 2009 7:08:24 GMT 3
The Khokol is a Turco-Mongol tradition. It did not come from the Rusyn.
The Cossack hosts are basically a Turco-Mongol way of life that slowly absorbed Rusyn and Russian elements, with mixture of other ethnicities such as Buryats and Caucasians.
This multiethnic steppes population, having acquired the characteristics of a "nation of the frontier", turned back and annexed some Rusyn areas as part of a new nation called "Ukrainians".
The history of the Ukraine is a history of Cossack hosts and Rusyn peasants rebelling against their Polish-Lithuanian catholic overlords with their own Greek Orthodox or catholic national churches, with the ultimate annexation of this frontier by Russian Orthodox Tsarist Empire.
However, the orthodox Ukrainians maintained their Greek Orthodox denomination, and did not cede to the Russian Orthodox church.
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Post by sarmat on Sept 2, 2009 7:50:27 GMT 3
What is Greek Orthodox?
Greek Orthodox exists only for Greeks. Ukrainian Orthodox belonged to Ukrainian Orthodox Church with their own Patriarch in Kiev. They never were "Greek Orthodox." When the Moscow took over, however, it abolished Kievan patriarchate and all the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was made a part of the Moscow Orthodox Patriarchate and it continues this way until now.
There also never was a strong National Ukrainian Catholic Church. A small minority practice a so-called Greek-Catholic faith that is strange mixture of Catholicism with Orthodox doctrines where Orthodox rites are retained by the supremacy of the Roman Pope is accepted. That faith was a product of a policy of Catolicization of Ukrainian lands by Polish kings. However, the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians always have been Orthodox.
Anyway, the above is a bit off topic.
Khokol tradition was not Slavic of course it comes from the Steppe. But it had been practiced by people in contact with the steppans already centuries before Cossacks without switching their identity. The most famous example is the Rus war-like prince Sviatoslav in the 10th century AD who had a hair lock that he apparently took from his Pecheneg allies.
Of course, Cossacks had very much in common with the neighboring steppan Turkic people. But still, their origins remain obsucred.
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Post by hjernespiser on Sept 2, 2009 8:00:37 GMT 3
what i allso like to know is how old is this outfit and it's history in the caucasus I've wondered that myself. When I was reading about the Alan fitted kaftan from the 9th century (picture somewhere around here...) there was some mention about how the cut is similar to this later Caucasus fitted kaftan. It could be a development from the earlier Caucasus kaftan styles.
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