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Post by arnewise12 on Jun 23, 2009 2:08:59 GMT 3
Why were the turkmens of central asia bandits after genghis khan invasion, I have a theory but I wanted your guys opionion
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 23, 2009 12:24:25 GMT 3
Yes, I also wonder why they didn't have an established state of their own like the Uzbeks or Kazakhs had. My level of knowledge on post-Mongol Central Asian history is very low so I would like to know that as well.
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Post by hjernespiser on Jun 23, 2009 21:22:26 GMT 3
No knowledge on the subject myself, but just a wild guess that it had something to do with economic conditions.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 24, 2009 23:10:28 GMT 3
In fact, Turkmen city-tribes confederations formed a formidable power in the region and were very feared by their neighbors.
The only serious military difficulties that Imperial Russia faced during the conquest of Central Asia were during the fighting with Turkmens.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Jun 25, 2009 11:18:03 GMT 3
Yes, the fierce resistance at Göktepe is well-known.
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Post by arnewise12 on Jun 25, 2009 13:53:13 GMT 3
It a good wild guess according to my own theory.
The reason behind turkmens being bandits is of economic conditions. After Djingis Khan invasion of khwarazm shah Turkmen shahdom, there were no economic cities in turkmenistan because merv and urgench was leveled with the ground.
The aftermath shows that during the next 300 years merv and other oasis in Turkmenistan was built up again but they meet the same fate as Mongol invasion, actually the safavids , emirs in bukhara and khan in khiva and afsharids plunderd and destroyed all the cultivated areas of turkmenistan, also timur lenk destroyed urgench,
so considering that during 300 years Turkmenistan have experinced more than one total destruction actually there was more than 5 times,
Every time turkmens tried to create a cultivated area they got destroyed by neighbours, so there were forced to live as bandits or die.
Die or become bandits, turkmens choose to be bandits. Thats why turkmens in post mongol period was without any own state beaceuse of the neiughbours constant plunder and attack.
The economic situation was bad becasue every time they cultivated it got destroyed, than turkmens had no other way than become bandits, there were no security like after the westromes fall in europe, turkmens experinced that for several centuries, so its not surprising that they got to be bandits.
The turkmens of medieval time didnt do such things because there were no threat from neighbours in the same way.
The enemies of todays turkmens frequently uses the bandit thing to make us look like gangster and without culture and civilization which is not true.
I hope I could explain it , if u have questions please post them and Ill try to answer
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Post by arnewise12 on Jun 25, 2009 14:00:19 GMT 3
Is this true, I always read that the local noble of iran were afraid of beeing robbed by turkmen bandits, not that the states of Bukhara , khiva and iran was afraid!!
Actually turkmens didnt have the same military advancements like khiva bukhara and iran, turkmens used only gilich which means sword while the army of safavids and afshar used muskeeters and canons.
Turkmens actually was afraid of direct confortation with army of iran since its higher technology, but still there were many battles between them.
Yes, its well-known, after that battle more than 50000 cilivians was kille by skobelev and up to 100,000 civilans,
he commited genocide on turkmens but today he has a staty of him in sankt petersbourg and is celebrated as a hero of russia.
Aftermath of gökdepe is that Turkmenistan splits into two areas, one that is left in iran and one in russian controlled. A consequnce of the genocide over 1 million turkmens flee to afghanistan were they still live.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 25, 2009 20:13:39 GMT 3
Is this true, I always read that the local noble of iran were afraid of beeing robbed by turkmen bandits, not that the states of Bukhara , khiva and iran was afraid!! Actually turkmens didnt have the same military advancements like khiva bukhara and iran, turkmens used only gilich which means sword while the army of safavids and afshar used muskeeters and canons. Turkmens actually was afraid of direct confortation with army of iran since its higher technology, but still there were many battles between them. I don't think it's true at all. Several Iranian military expeditions against Turkmens ended in complete faliure. Also, Turkmen warriors had fireweapons and were on the same if not more advanced technological level that had armies of Khiva and Bukhara. I believe that they actually were better armed. On the onset of Skobelev's expedition against Turkmen, he was openly told by the Iranian Shakh that Turkmens are considered invincible in Iran and he doubts that the Russians army could defeat them, he offered the support of the Iranian army to the Russian expedition. Skobelev felt offended and refused the Iranian aid. Yes, its well-known, after that battle more than 50000 cilivians was kille by skobelev and up to 100,000 civilans, he commited genocide on turkmens but today he has a staty of him in sankt petersbourg and is celebrated as a hero of russia. Aftermath of gökdepe is that Turkmenistan splits into two areas, one that is left in iran and one in russian controlled. A consequnce of the genocide over 1 million turkmens flee to afghanistan were they still live. At the same time, Skobelev was very respected by many Turkmens. Skobelev's army also included Turkmen units and he had his own Turkmen bodyguards. Also, it's a bitter truth, but Turkmen slave's trade network was like a desease for Central Asian people and states and it ceased to exist only after the Russian debacle. |
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Post by arnewise12 on Jun 26, 2009 1:59:47 GMT 3
Is this true, were did u get this from, were did the turkmens get fireweapons from.
When did iranian military expeditions end with failure , please give more info,
maybe u are right , the only one I can think of is than the first king of the qajars agha mohammed khan tried to invade turkmenistan the turkmen tribes united adn defeated him.
Please give your source,
I think this was before the gök depe battle, actaully skobelev is hated by turkmens today, he commited genocide on us.
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Post by sarmat on Jun 26, 2009 6:07:50 GMT 3
Is this true, were did u get this from, were did the turkmens get fireweapons from. I got this from the Russian sources. After the conquest of Geok-Tepe and other Turkmen forts Russian troops captured thousands of guns and pistols and even some canons. They captured 5000 guns for example only in Dengil-Tepe. Turkmens bought fire weapons from their neighbors. They were bandits and slave traders and they had means to afford that. When did iranian military expeditions end with failure , please give more info, I remember that there were several expeditions from Iran and Bukhara Khanate all were unsuccesful as well as the first Russian expedition against Geok-Tepe. In fact, Russian lost in Turkmenia more troops than during all the campaigns in the rest of Central Asia. Please give your source, I think this was before the gök depe battle, actaully skobelev is hated by turkmens today, he commited genocide on us. It's not really that straighforward. Turkems were divided into several tribes that were fighting with each other. Skobelev fought with Teki tribe the most fearsome and numerous. However, other tribes like Yomuts supported the Russians and even supplied them with information and auxillary troops. During the first part of his career in the Central Asia, Skobelev several times made very long reconnaissance raids in hostil territories during which he was accompanied only by a few Turkmen horsemen. I got that information from a number of Russian books that read about the subjects. Here is a Russian internet article about Skoblev from the top of my head. You can translate is with google translator if you don' know Russian. traditio.ru/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%85%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BB_%D0%94%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87_%D0%A1%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2 |
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