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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 20, 2009 16:08:02 GMT 3
Yes there is a high possibility of Northern Chinese having some Tungid blood. Even modern anthropology divided Northern and Southern Chinese into two distinct subracial groups. J.K. Baker and R. McCullogh's work explained this quite well, though of course it's debatable.
Through experience however travelling in China, I've noticed very different phenotypes between Northern and Southern Chinese. The Chinese who invited me and my girlfriend for dinner also told me of the social belief that Northerners are much larger, but Southerners are much more intelligent. Now this myth actually insulted me quite a bit, it's almost saying the more north you go, the dumber you are.
Now many Mongols don't like the fact that the enemy they hate the most are the hybrids in the PRC government (Mongol/Manchu mix with Han), not the pureblooded Sinos. However, these hybrids are mixed with Manchus who intermarried into the Golden family and are the only ones giving trouble for the Mongolians as they claim Outer Mongolia as their right by lineage.
Sadly, the sinophobia continues despite this.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 20, 2009 17:25:13 GMT 3
It's actually commonly believed that the Northern Chinese are stronger, more proud, more warlike and better in administration and politics than the Southerners and also are somehow arrogant.
While the Southern Chinese are kind of tricky, less principal and better in business than the Northerners.
And this difference is indeed notable. Even Manchu and Mongols were dividing Chinese into these two categories.
Most overseas Chinese population BTW consists of the Southerners.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 20, 2009 17:33:11 GMT 3
Also from the historical point of view. It was mostly Northerners who ruled China. The Southerners always were trying to survive.
Southern dynasties always were kind of in defence against the Northern agressors.
Modern Mandarin is based on the Northern dialects. And what is the most interesting in my opinion is that Mandarin has a clear visible layer of Altaic grammar and vocabularly in it which is absent in the Southern dialects.
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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 20, 2009 18:29:17 GMT 3
Yeah this is very true, I guess it seems there really is more to their social belief then an urban myth. It seems while the Mongolians are busy hating the southern Sinos for the deeds of the northerners, the ones really giving China a bad name are not the pureblooded Chinese in the first place. As Nanman pointed out before; "Crossing the wolf with the dragon has seriously deadly results".
My girlfriend is half Hokkien - a southern Sino ethnic, not northern. However... *sighs* I have never thought that one day, I would be defending Chinese people. Women and especially children... even yet unborn, really changes how you see things. As much as I used to use the word 'hujaa' so much in the past in a derogatory manner, it seems now I might one day help make 'hujaa' something to be proud of for the sake of my family.
Many wont believe I'm saying this, but I actually quite like southern Chinese people. They are friendly, polite, hospitable, peaceful, family-orientated, hard-working and socially mild. What is there to hate? If only my people will meet some ffs.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 20, 2009 18:47:11 GMT 3
Yes, it's nomades who made China powerful like Manchus for example. I wonder where would be Chinese territorial borders now if not them?
A name for China in some languages like Cathay for example actually comes from Mongolic Khitans.
As about the Chinese people in general, I believe they deserve much respect. And why should we hate anybody, anyway, just because he happened to be born different from us?
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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 20, 2009 19:07:06 GMT 3
Aye that's true, with the current political climate I can understand my people's anger at China, as well as some rather atrocious cultural traits of China.
However, now it's personal - my girlfriend and my child are involved who have NOTHING to do with what the PRC is doing nor do they indulge in any of the animal-torture or live-monkey-brain-eating. Even Nanman, who is southern Chinese expressed his disgust at such utter misplaced hatred.
Now I want what Nanman wants, an end to all this. Nomads have to learn to accept responsibility of what China has become, instead of pushing the blame all on the entire Sino race. My child will bear the blunt of it if he/she ever tries to converse with my people.
Such realities, don't really help ease my mind or my girlfriend's mind. FFS she's pregnant too, and here we have people already dehumanising our gift of a child. I can show Mongols this history, but the anger is too strong for them to accept.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Mar 20, 2009 23:22:07 GMT 3
Oh well of course, Northern China has always been a melting and Sinifieing pot of many Altaic peoples. There were big numbers of Huns, Serbi (Xianbei 鮮卑), Tabġač (Tuoba 拓跋), Göktürks (Tujue 突厥), Kitans, Mongols, etc settled in Northern China. I also heard many stories about differences between Southern and Northern Chinese, and that during modern wars, Chinese commanders usually used to send Northerners as the first waves because of their more war-like nature; and that the Northerners eat more meat, etc... God knows how many of Northern "Han Chinese" are actually Turko-Mongols. As Sarmat pointed out, the Qin 秦 Dynasty was originally considered "barbarian/foreigner" by the Chinese. Similarly, even though modern Chinese deny it today, the Zhou 周 Dynasty was also non-Chinese, and very highly possibly Turkic or Proto-Turkic, as Wolfram Eberhard and Muhaddere Özerdim pointed out in their numerious works (don't tell me these are outdated). Eberhard also thinks the Shang 商 was probably Tungusic while Xia 夏 was Proto-Tibetanic. I am not very sure of these, but I know that Zhou wasn't Chinese in the beginning, and even if it wasn't Turkic, it was Altaic (I tend to think them as Turkic because they came from the Northwest where Turkic lived, not from the northeast). The worship of heaven/sky (Tian 天) in China was also non-Chinese, it was brought by the Zhou; in fact, Tian is nothing but the traditional Turkic-Steppe cult of Täŋri (Tengri). I'm sure this would anger many Chinafolk, but I ain't believe that everything in China is made by native Chinese They must accept and acknowledge that non-Chinese people did play a major role in their history. Dear Sarmat, what I pointed out in my previous post was that the story connecting Huns with Xia was recorded down at least a millenium (probably more) after the mentioned-events took place. There are no direct evidences to proove that the Hunnic royal family was descendent of the Xia Dynasty
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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 21, 2009 14:01:43 GMT 3
This angers Mongols as much as Chinafolk. I think due to the political climate it's not very easy for either party to accept a mid-group. Instead they say "Western racial theories are just as stupid as they were hundreds of years ago" (Though in fact I was quite impressed with recent works). It's also not easy on Mongols knowing that this mixed group sides with China!!!!
Meh you know what, talking about China, now I can't get that Chinese New Year karaoke song out of my head that I heard like 500x in Singapore!!!! Worse is if my girlfriend starts singing it... o.O
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Post by sarmat on Mar 21, 2009 18:17:36 GMT 3
Dear Sarmat, what I pointed out in my previous post was that the story connecting Huns with Xia was recorded down at least a millenium (probably more) after the mentioned-events took place. There are no direct evidences to proove that the Hunnic royal family was descendent of the Xia Dynasty That post of mine was rather an ironic statement. Of course, we can't prove that passage of Sima Qian. But what I meant, first of all, was that it's notable that according to the Chinese classical history it was believed there had been a direct connection to the Nomadic world that was recoded a very long time ago. And although we can't prove it, but we also should take it into account. Since, at least, we would know how "conventionally" origins of Xiongnu were viewed by the Ancient Chinese people.
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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 21, 2009 20:27:27 GMT 3
^ Chun Wei means "Brave and handsome". Also it's a known Chinese habit to pin Chinese translated names on historical non-Chinese figures. This is the only explanation that is not contratory to genetic and anthropological studies.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2009 7:56:44 GMT 3
Chun Wei ~ˆÛ would mean something like "Honest/pure protector/defender." Chun is actually one of the traditional Chinese last names.
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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 22, 2009 11:17:46 GMT 3
It's one of my girlfriend's cousin birth name, and that's his definition. All Chinese I met translated it the same way it seems.
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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2009 18:26:21 GMT 3
With all due respect, but I don't think there is another way to translate 2 characters ~ˆÐ that I listed below.
I'm not sure about your girlfriend's cousin, but very often Overseas Chinese don't use Pinyin for English transliteration of their names. So, it might indeed look something like Chun Wei written to transliterate some Cantonese or other Southern Chinese sounds. But, in fact, the characters are different than the characters that would be used for the Pinyin name Chun Wei.
Is it possible to see the Chinese characters for your girlfriend' cousin name?
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Post by sarmat on Mar 22, 2009 18:37:29 GMT 3
What I assume, is that his surname is r (Jun4 in Pinyin) which indeed means handsome.
Southern Chinese often transliteterate it as "Chun" but this Character is different from the character in the name of Prince Chun Wei
Perhaps his full name is 俊(jun4 handsome) 威 (wei1 power, authority). But these are not the Characters from prince 淳维 (Chun2 Wei2) name.
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Post by Subu'atai on Mar 23, 2009 8:02:38 GMT 3
Just asked her, her cousin's birth name is Chun Wei, meaning brave and handsome.
However I also asked in regards to the possibility of linguistic corruption as her background is Hokkien. She replied they speak both Hokkien and Mandarin, so she doubts it. I'm not so sure.
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