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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 25, 2008 10:06:44 GMT 3
Just gathering what I have on the Magyar-Bashkir "puzzle".
On Magyars being called Bashkir:
From Andras Rona-Tas' "Hungarians and Europe in the Early Middle Ages" CEU Press 1999 pg 289 - 294
Rona-Tas first gives the "original" or reconstructed form of the ethnic name Bashkir.
10th century sources which give three different forms of the name: 1) Bashjirt - from the works of al-Balhi, al-Istrahri, and Ibn Haukal. 2) Bashghird/Bashghirt/Bashgird - from Ibn Fadlan, Abu Hamid al-Garnati, Kashghari, and Yakut. 3) Bajghird - from Masudi.
Additionally, The Secret History of the Mongols (13th century) has this name as Bajigit. Juvaini, Rashid ud-Din, Abul Gazi wrote Bashgird. The Europeans wrote Baskar/Bashkar, Baskatur/Bashkatur, Baschart, Biscart, Bascart, Bashart, Bistart, Bastard, Bascard, Pascatur, Pascatir, Pascatu. The -t disappeared in Russian which gives the rest of the world the name Bashkir today.
Rona-Tas reconstructs *Bachgird. He then explains the sound changes to get from that to the Arabic and Turkic variations.
Modern Bashkir history doesn't extend any earlier beyond the Mongol era.
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In the group of sources based on al-Balhi, ... there are two kinds of Bashkirs. One live at the end of the Guz, behind the Bulghars, and are said to number 2000 people. They live under the protection of forests, and are therefore difficult to attack. They are subjects of the Bulghars. The other Bashkirs, the larger, more populous group, live in lands bordering on the Pechenegs. Both they and the Pechenegs are Turkic, and share borders with the Byzantines.
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Who called the Magyars "Bashkir"?
- Short answer: The Volga Bulghars.
- Long answer: Al-Garnati traveled from Baghdad north to Saksin and then north to the Bulghars. He left the Volga Bulghar capital in 1150. He headed west through Russia, Kiev, and Pecheneg land. Then he arrived in Hungary and stayed there for three years. He later returned to Saksin and finally back to Baghdad and wrote down his journeys. He wrote: "After I arrived in Unguriya, where there lives the Bashgird people." He calls the Hungarian king a Bashgird king, who is called Krali.
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The only reason why somebody would have called the Carpathian Basin Magyars Bashkirs in the 12th century is that he had come from a place where Magyars were called Bashkirs. Al-Garnati had come from the Volga Bulghars and used their designation.
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Why did the Volga Bulghars call the Danube Magyars Bashkirs?
- They also called the Volga Magyars by this name and they knew that it was the same people.
When did the Volga Bulghars start calling the Magyars Bashkir?
- It was the 8th century at the latest. In principle, it could be when the Volga Bulghars first came into contact with the Magyars or became neighbors with them.
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Post by hjernespiser on Nov 25, 2008 10:18:09 GMT 3
I guess my personal question on this issue is how did the name Bashkir come to be applied to modern Bashkirs?
1) Was Bashkir the Volga Bulghar name for Magyar that they later applied to modern Bashkirs because they inhabited the same region as the Eastern Magyars (i.e., Huns being called Scythians)?
2) Or was the Bashkir ethnic name known by the Volga Bulghars for some other group and they applied it to the Magyars for whatever reason?
Rona-Tas devotes a chapter near the end of his book on "The East Magyars, The Bashkirian Tribal Names, and Yugria". In it he talks about attempts to find evidence of Eastern Magyars being assimilated into the modern Bashkirs on the basis of tribal names. The theory goes that the Magyar tribal name Gyarmat corresponds with Bashkir Yurmati and Magyar Jenő with Bashkir Yeney. After giving details about sound changes, Rona-Tas concludes that only Jenő/Yeney could fit, Yeney being either of Magyar or Volga Bulghar origin. As for Gyarmat/Yurmati, it is more doubtful. It requires that Yurmati derived from Volga Bulgharian.
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Post by ALTAR on Nov 25, 2008 12:35:12 GMT 3
Tribes of Bashkirs The USERGAN
Usergan tribe was one of the largest ones. Surash, Aiyiu, Bure, Bishei and Shishei were the most ancient kins of this tribe.
The Sakmara, the Ik, the Suren, the Kasmarka, the Zilair and the Tanalik river basins were considered their territories. These are - Zianchurinsky, Zilairsky, Khaibulinsky regions in modern Bashkortostan and Kuvandiksky, Sariktashevsky, Gaissky and Novoorsky regions - in Orenburg oblast. Saratovskaya and Samarskaya districts along the Irgizu, the Karaliku and the Kameliku rivers and also the villages of the Bolshaya and Malaya Usen are less occupied by the Usergan.
Shezhere, legends and other original sources allow us to depict the ethnic history of the Usergan tribe in the following way. The ancient forehome of the Usergan was the Syr Daria valley. The tribe leader was Muiten, Tuksaba's son. That's why the most ancient name of this tribe was Muiten.
For some reason, it may be connected with the political situation in 1000 A.D., the Usergan, according to legends, headed by wolf, migrated to the South Urals. In 70-s, when ethnographical researches were held in Khaibulinsky, Zianchurinsky and Zilairsky regions, I was often told legends by old men, that their forefathers from the Syr Daria and the Aral side had occupied these places.
The tribe's name comes from Muiten son's name - Usergan. In his time, R.G.Kuzeev had expressed his opinion of the community of the Usergan ancient ethnic base and the Karakalpak muiten tribe. As it was mentioned before, Muiten is considerred the forefather of the Usergan and all Bashkirs.
Only the Bashkirs and the Karakalpaks have the ethnonim Muiten. The coincidence of the ethnonims as well as the migration of the Usergan-Muiten forefathers the Aral side and Syr Daria show us that the Muiten had taken part in the formation of Bashkir and Karakalpak nations.
There is an opinion that the Usergan as well as the Burzyan and the Tungaur, after migration to the South Ural, first of all lived in the south-west of modern Bashkortostan. In connection with the strengthening of the Mongolian impact, in the XIIIth century, the Usergan had moved from the south-west side of the Urals to the foothills of the south Urals and finally settled down on the territory of their modern occupation. According to shezhere, in the XVI-XVIIth centuries the Usergan Lands were assigned to them by tzar decrees. In the XVI-XVIIth centuries the ethnic history of the Usergan was in interaction with their southern and eastern neighbours. The Usergan lived in close neighbourhood with the Kichi Karakh /Mali Zhuz/. Several Membet/ Mambet/ tribal subdivisions are known in the Usergan staff. Their geneologies come from the Kazakh tribe again. The Usergan of tribal subdivisions again consider themselves as the Kazakhs. In the XVIIth century they stayed among the Bashkirs and became the Bashkirs. In XVIII-XIXth centuries the etnographic links with Asia gradually disappeared and the contacts with Turki and Finnish people of the Volga region and the Ural side became more close.
It is difficult to speak about the total number of the Usergan. In the origin sources the information is fragmentary. It should be noted, that according to information of D.N.Sokolov, at the end of the XIXth century 42 thousand Bashkirs lived in Usergan volosts. /D.N.Sokolov. About Bashkir tamga//Works of Orenburg academic archives commission. XIIIth issue. Orenburg, 1904/.
The TUNGAUR
The Tungaur are territorially subdivided into southern and nothern ones. The figure in the form of a half moon is the main tamga of the northern and southern Tungaur. The ethnonim "tungaur" is being compared with the name of the Mongolian tribe "tangaur". The geneology of Tungaur comes from Dingaur-Kungrathby's son. May be, the origin of ethnic base of the Tungaur tribe should be connected with the Tungaur tribe should be connected with the Kungrat. The Kungrat was the ancient Mongolian tribe. It was under the influence of turkisation and took part in formation of the ethnic staff of the Uzbek and other nations of Central Asia. On the East the Tungaur had separated from the Mongolian tribes very early. Its turkisation had occured in the midst of Turki Kaganat and was finished in the old Peacheng period. Among the Tungaur were spread legends that their forefarthers had lived on the Altai but then, headed by the wolf, they left this territory. The Tungaur history is evidence of early penetration of Mongolian ethnic groups on the Syr Daria and the Aral side and their participation in the formation of many Turki speaking nations.
The ancient legends of the Tungaur tribe connect its original residence, before moving to the Urals, with the Syr Daria valley. According to legends, the Tungaur as well as the Usergan and the Burzyan acquired a new homelamd thanks to the wolf-totem-the protector of the ancient Bashkirs.
The wolf, as a totem, took an important place in the mythology of the ancient Turki and Mongol. In turki-mongolian mythology the wolf appears in the role of their forefather and the protector of all Turki and Mongols. Till recently, many Turki nations, especially, the south-eastern Bashkir had a lot of superstitions and signs, connected with the wolf. The characteristic features of the "wolf cult" among Turki nations are the conceptions, drawing it as a tribe protector from any misfortunes. There are some facts in Tungaur legends, that their forefathers lived in the south-west of modern Bashkortostan. Some important changes in the Tungaur settling happened in the XIIth century. Because of increasing Mongolian invasion the Tungaur left the south-western side of the Urals and went to the foothills of South Urals. The impetuous political events of the XII-XIVth centuries made the Tungaur go farther to the mountains. Moving up the Nugush and the Belaya rivers, they occupied mountainous and forestry palces. It was at the border of the XIV-XVth centuries.
It was impossible to run the traditional cattle-breeding business on former scale in the mountainous and forestry regions of the South Ural. Forestry couldn't be of great importance in the XIV-XVth centuries. According to archives, its growth began only in XVIIIth century. Wild bees farming and hunting couldn't compensate cattle-breeding business either. That is why it was natural, that the Tungaur, beginning with the moment of their migration, had been looking and found the ways to the Trans Ural forest-steppes and steppes. First of all the Tungaur organised winter cattle tebenevka in the slightly snowy Trans Ural steppes. Little by little, the most part of the Tungaur made their homes, for ever, in the upper reaches of the Sakmara and Trans Ural, going back to the mountains only during the spring and summer roamings from place to place.
The stay of the Tungaur in the South Ural and the Ural side in the XIV-XVth centuries is charachterized by their active interaction with the Kipchak, who had played an important role in the formation of Bashkir nation.
In the XVI-XIXth centuries the interaction of the Tungaur with their southern and eastern neighbours was going on, but its character was gradually changing.
At the same time the contacts between the Tungaur and the Kazakh maintained the traditional cattle-breeding way of life and the steppe features of Bashkir culture.
The TAMIAN
In the XVII-XIXth centuries the Tamian were ethnographically subdivided into southern and nothern. The southern Tamian lived in the midst of the Belaya river and in the lower reaches of the Nugush. The nothern Tamian lived in the upper reaches of the Belaya and the Trans Ural rivers. May be in the XVI-XVIIth centuries Tamian plots of land were vaster. By the date of 1730-s, the Tamian volost was in the west, in the Ik bazin. There is also an information that the Tamian were subdiveded into 3 kins: Milit, Kuyan, Mesegut.
In Middle ages the Tamian tribe was one of the most powerful and numerous unions of the Bashkir. According to data of the Kungur burgomaster Yukhnev, at the beginning of the XVIIIth century the number of the Tamian was about 21 thousand people.
The well-known explorer of the past century N.A.Aristov in his work "The Notes about the ethnic staff of Turki tribes and nations and the information about their total number" /St.P.1896/ writes, that Bashkir tribe "tamian" has the relationship with Kazakh one "tama". In the XIXth century this tribe lived in the upper reaches of the Syr Daria.
The legends, that their forefathers ancient homeland was Altai Territory are widely spread among the "Tamian". Kazakh ethnographers have formed the hypothesis about the genetic relationship between Kazakh kins "tama" and "tana" and the Mongolian one "tuma". According to the information of Rashd-ad-Din, at the beginninig of the XIVth century the "Tuma tumat" tribe settled down in the upper reaches of the Yenisei.
It should be noted that the Eastern Bashkir had one unimportant feature. By the archives information, in the XVIII-XIXth centuries, the joint Tamian-Tungaur volost existed in the Upper Aral area. Such villages as Khamitovo, Utyaganovo, Askarovo, Burangulovo, Yarlikapovo and other are mentioned in this volost. The existance of the common volost, undoubtebly, is evidence of the mutual propinquity of the "Tamian" and "Tungaur" tribes. The result of this propinquity is the common feature of the ethnic basis of these tribes, wich goes to the Sayan-Alta; homeland of their forefathers. The ancient mongolian sources of the "Tamian" tribe are confirmed by the ethnonim "tamian" in its original form tuma, which is widely spread in South-eastern Bashkortostan.
In such away, the sources of the Tamian ethnic history go to the intricate ethnogenetic wourld of Sayn-Altai Territory. The Tamian are the ethnic legatees of the ancient Mongolian tribes.
Let's examine the penetration time of forefathers of the tribe "tama" into eastern Europe. It is well-known that, beginning with the epoch of turkised Mongolian tribes into the territory of Semirechye and further to the west took place. This time they have been mixed up with the large Turki tribe unions. Before the loft century the tribe "tama" in the pechenegs stream of nomands with the Burzyan, the Usergan and other tribes could reach the territory to the west of the Yaik and the Volga rivers. The transition from the ethnonim "tama" to "tamian" could happen in the tribes, whose ethnonims had the some ending- "the Burzyan", "the Usergan", in other words, in Central Asia. In the IXth century the Tamian found themselves to the west of the Volga. From here they have made their ways to the Ural side, may be, after the Burzyan.
According to the Tamian legends, their forefathers lived in the upper reaches of the Oyoma river. And at the end of the XIIth century, they left this place and moved to the south bend of the Belaya river. In the XIVth century the main part of the Tamian went deep into the mountainous and forestry zone of the Urals. The others secured their formed places (the southern bend of the Belaya river in the mouth of the Nugush. This part of the Tamian was subjected to great influence of the Kipcak).
The BURZYAN
The Burzyan tribe is the largest and the most ancient in the staff of the Bashkir nation. According to archives information, there were from 50 to 55 thousand of them in the second part of the XIXth century.
The kin staff of the Burzyan tribe was as following: Monash, Nugai, Yamash, Yanpari, BaiUli.
The Burzyan are settled down in the upper reaches of the Belaya river up to the Yaik river. In the south, the river basins of the Bolshoi and Mali Ik, Yushatir are the Burzyan territories. The most part of the Burzyan are settled down in the Dyoma valley and farther to the south down the Tok, the Bolshoi and Mali Uran, Irgiz, Karalik and Kamelik streams.
The ethnogenetic legends of the ancient Burzyan trace their most ancient forefathers to Central Asia. The eastern ethnic roots of the Burzyan are also illustreated by the comparative and historical analysis of their material culture and the folk art ornaments. In early 1000 A.D. the Burzyans, together with other normands, went to Central Asia. The formation of the ancient Burzyan ethnocultural aspect and their ethnonims took place there.
In historical-ethnographical literature of the Burzyans are compared with the Burzyans of eastern sources. Such identification is well-grounded.
Ibn-al-Asir (VIth century) announces that in 60-s of the VIth century the Burzyan together with the other Turki took part in the devastation of the Eflalit government. According to this author's information, in 588 A.D., the martial Burzhan took part in the prominent Turki invasion to the Iranian property. These facts are evidence of active participation of the Burzhan in the political life of Turki kaganat.
The following centuries the Burzhan were closely connected with Vizantiya, with which the Turki kagans had started the agreed by contacts relations at the end of the VIth century.
In the VIIth century the Burzhan were still in Central Asia. Together with other Turki tribes they went farther to the south, reaching the foots of the Khorasan mountain range. The Turki penetration to the south was connected with the crisis in Turki kaganat. The Turki inflow into the Bukhara oasis was especially massive. Undoubtedly, the forefathers of the Burzhan and other Bashkir tribes were among Turki population of the Bukhara oasis. The Bashkort mountains are situated to the south-east of the Bukhara oasis on the western Pamir spurs. And from there they have moved to the side of Azov.
The etymology of the ethnonim «Burzhan» is not clear. Some linguists try to find it out in Turkic and Iranian. For example, let’s take Turkic «dzhan», «ian» and Mongolian «dzhan», which means «man», «tribe». The meaning of the main root-buz-is not clear but it is suggested to have Iranian or sarmato-alansk origin. The Burzhan were in ethnopolitical relations with the Bulgarian from the side of the Azov. Being closely connected with the Bulgarian, the Burzhan were infrequently called the Bulgarian. Though the Burzhan’s name was well-known to the medieval world, in the south Russian steppes it was gradually mixed up within the Bulgarian, until the name «Burzhan», to some medieval author’s opinion, became the second name of the Danube Bulgarian.
Not only the Bulgarian but also the Burzyan were subdivided during the migration. Some of the Burzhan (Burzyan) went to the North, the Volga and the side of the Urals. And at the some time the Burzyan groups migrated from the side of the Aral to the side of the Urals.
At the border of 1000-2000 A. D. the Burzyan roamed from place to place on the southern and south-eastern outlying districts of Volga-Bulgarian world. In the legends of the ancient Burzyan there is a great number of facts about their fore fathers settling to the south-west of modern Bashkortostan. Because of deepening Mongolian expansion the Burzyan migrated to the foothills of the South Urals, occupying a wide territory between the streams of the Yaik and the Belaya rivers. The impetuous events of the XIII-XIVth centuries made the Burzyan to move farther from the south Ural foothills up to the mountains.
In the XVII-XVIIIth centuries the movement of the Burzyan in the opposite directions to the south and to the North took place. The first group migrated to the river basins of the Bolshoi and Mali Ik, and the Yushatir. Here the Burzyan have mixed up with the kara-kipchak. As a result, the Burzyan-Kipchak volost appeared. The second group migrated to the Dyoma river’s valley, to the river basins of the Bolshoi Irgiz and their tributaries the Kamelik and the Karalik.
The TABIN
The Tabin kin was the most numerous and intricate among the Bashkir ones. According to information, which was gathered by the Kungur burgomaster Yukhnev in 1725-1726, the total number of the Tabin Bashkir was about 60 thousand people. It was almost the fourth part of the Bashkirs in those days. Ethnographically, the Tabin Bashkirs are subdivided into the western and eastern.
The western Tabin are in Central Bashkortostan and the eastern ones-in Trans Ural.
The majority of the Tabin live in the west and south Bashkortostan along the Ik, Cheremshan, Tok, Mali Uran rivers and also in the Urgmzo-Kamelic basin.
The tribe Tabin is the largest one among the Tabin Bashkirs. It consists of 9 kins. Four of them are kara-tabin, barin, telyau, kubalyak, in Trans Ural. They are known in ethnographic literature as the eastern tabin kins. Five kins-yumran, kelser, kese, diuan and sart are in Central Bashkortostan. They are known as the western tabin kins.
Kara tabin kin was the strongest and the most numerous kin among the eastern tabin kins. And kese, yumran and kelser kins were the strongest and the most numerous among the western tabin ones.
The ancient Tabin legends show us that Altai was their forefathers' homeland. During the progress of Turki Kaganat, the Tabin were moving to the Semirechie. At the end of 1000 A.D. they began to contact with the Kipchak tribes there. It was a period of active Kipchak integration, which had involved a wide territory. Mass migration of the Kipchak to the west, especially to the Aral side steppes and further to Volga region, has begun. The Tabin forefathers were also involved in this migration.
The Tabin Union, which had been in Desht and Kipchak staff, was broken up after the Mongolian conquest. Some Tabin migrated to the North, Bashkortostan.
Nowadays the old men, among the western as well eastern Bashkir of the Tabin kin, tell us that their forefathers lived in the upper reaches of the Ik, near lake Asli-kul. Earlier it was called lake Kara-Tabin. This name existed even in the middle of the XIXth century. The well-known explorer of our region V.M.Cheremshansky also calls it lake Kara-Tabin in the work «The industrial and economic-statistic description of Orenburg province» (Ufa, 1859). Since the end of the XIVth century the Tabin began to leave the Ik, Dyoma and lake Asli-Kul valleys and moved to the East and the North. The eastern Tabin kins, the tribes of the Kuvakan and Sirsi moved to Trans Ural and occupied the northern spurs of the South Ural mountain range, the upper reaches of the Yaik. Little by little the Tabin penetrated into Trans Ural.
www.bashedu.ru/konkurs/yanguzin/eng/history.htm |
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 25, 2009 11:59:37 GMT 3
Meh, typical Hungarian nonsense that tries to claim over the Huns, nothing new.
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Post by hjernespiser on Aug 26, 2009 7:53:54 GMT 3
Don't rely upon anything from hunmagyar.org.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 26, 2009 20:15:21 GMT 3
Indeed. The name tells everything ;D ;D
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Post by hjernespiser on Aug 27, 2009 2:55:38 GMT 3
The guy who runs that website is more interested in playing victim than solving any real problems. Seriously, who writes like this if they're so proud of being Turanian?
"Throughout history, the Turanian lands have been invaded by foreigners: Semites, Persians, Chinese, Greeks, Romans, Slavs, and Germanic peoples. In many cases, the indigenous Turanian peoples have been and are still subjected to genocide, colonization, deportation, or assimilation."
The Uighurbiz post is kind of strange. I don't know what it says, but first they start out posting from hunmagyar.org then linking to a bunch of Wikipedia articles and going on about the division of "Greater Hungary" after WWI.
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Post by H. İhsan Erkoç on Aug 27, 2009 11:47:22 GMT 3
LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D Funny bunch of people  |
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Post by osman on Apr 30, 2011 16:29:26 GMT 3
I read Rona Tas's lecture which he gave in 1984 in West Falia. This person gives example of word in Hungarian and tries to compare it with the Turkish. Some of which will be given here because he himself does not know Turkish let alone does not even truly matched the words.
According to his explanation Hungarian word for saddle is nyereg and claims that its Turkish match is eðer. Even this very similar: nyereg=eger but it is not true. The match for nyereg should be eyer: nyer=eyer (the two are names). Eger is a verb which means twister not a word. Becasue he is in favor of Indo-Iranian view he even goes further and says it is borrowed from Irani language. In support of this he says in steppe in Central Asia once we were there we were neighbour with the Ýranians. But he never know that Indo-Ýranians were never there at that time. There is an al least 2 thousands year gap. He always back up with Ýranians and this makes me sceptical about his actions whether the person seeded him in his mother was an Iranian??
On the other hand he says in 1074 The Byzantian Emperor Michael VII sent a crown to the king of Maygar (at that times hungarians called maygar) Giza for the honour of his being the king of Maygars. On the crown he incribed "Faithful Jüvitse The King of Turksé" Then he says at that time maygars were the ruler and they oppressed the Hungarians but later on Hungarians became the ruler and assimilated the maygars. Do not you think this is more than humiliation of his/her own roots of a person??
Can we discuss such an inferior attitude???
He goes further and says Hungarians roots goes back to Ub-Ugries which were not Turkic but an Indo-Ýranian settlers. But even himself was not able to hide the fact which is this: As soon as the collapse of russian Red Empire, Hungarian archeologists rushed to Uzbekstan and Chine to see the historical facts on On-Uigurs!! Ub-Ugri was actually the name of Turkish people On-igurs which are todays Uigurs. And they mainly settled in Xhincian in China.
As a result if any body should become an academician should bear the ethic of being an academician and the ethic of creation and respect to the material he/she searched for!!!
This is the essence of being not an academician but a human being!!
Enogh for now
Dr.Osman
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Post by aca on Apr 30, 2011 21:07:43 GMT 3
I think Proto-Turks were the ancestors of all human beings. You can't ignore so many evidences, can you.
I even think (some might disagree) that God himself was a Proto-Turk
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Post by benzin on May 1, 2011 1:01:43 GMT 3
Dear Osman !
The reason what he may wrote that is the fact according to graves from that period across Hungary is that the incoming population to the Carpathian basin was much less in number than the population lived already here. The population already lived here was mentioned as avar, ungar, hungar, onogur, etc in several sources. The incoming population was called Turks, Madjars.
So he presumes that the only way the incoming of the Madjars could happen that they were more powerful when they arrived but as time passed the local Ungars take over both their language and the leading role.
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Post by hjernespiser on May 1, 2011 5:45:48 GMT 3
Benzin,
Actually, it sounds more like there's some terminology confusion. Hungarian historiography uses specific terms to divide up the different time periods and the population during that time. Sometimes the word "Hungarian" is used to refer to the evolution of the Magyars post-Conquest to reflect that the incoming conquerors mixed with people already living in the Carpathian Basin. The word "Proto-Hungarian" is used to refer to the mixed population of the incoming conquerors. At the same time "Hungarian" is synonymous with "Magyar" in English. It can also mean someone of "Natio Hungaria" whether they are Magyar or not.
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Post by benzin on May 1, 2011 13:38:03 GMT 3
To be honest, we have no clear idea until today how exactly this mix happened with the incomers and the people lived here, so confusing terms are understandable as noone knows this and the sources, codexes are all confusing. There are theories they spoke the same language, there are theories that they spoke different languages, and the incomers spoke turkic and the ones lived here spoke ugrian language.
The official theory is that the incomers spoke the ugrian language and the ones who lived here took over that language, but the archeologist findings suggests that the incomers were small in number, so its not clear how it happened.
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