Post by hjernespiser on Nov 23, 2008 11:10:04 GMT 3
This would be pronounced like "mazhar" when spelled with English orthography. This information comes from a book called "On the Tracks of Friar Julian: Journeys Across Mongolia" by photographer Mihály Benkő. The preface is written by Hungarian linguist János Harmatta.
The story goes like this:
The Eastern Cumanians were being defeated by the Mongols. A combined Russian-Cumanian force was severely defeated at the Khalkha River. In 1227, the Western Cumanians declared themselves to be subjects to the Kingdom of Hungary and converted to Christianity in order to seek protection from the Mongols. In 1229, an Episcopate attached to the Archbishop in Esztergom was established in southern Moldavia for these Cumans. Prince Bela saw a need to extend Hungarian intelligence eastward due to this religio-political change. Thus an old legend about Hungarians who stayed behind in "Scythia" was given new life and Bela funded Dominican travels into Scythia.
In 1232, a group of Dominican friars set off on a quest to meet "Eastern Magyars". After three years, a Friar Otto met with Hungarian-speaking people "in a pagan country". He learned from them where the Eastern Magyars lived and then returned to Hungary instead of trying to go visit them. Another group of Dominican friars set off in 1235 using information from this report. Of these monks, Friar Julian ended up traveling to Magna Bulgaria and met a Magyar woman. She told him they lived two day's away to the east "at the Large Etil River" or Ulugh Etil, Volga.
There's two independent reports from the 1200s on Eastern Magyars. So what happened with them? According the Harmatta, they joined with the Mongols. These Eastern Magyars were dispersed throughout the Mongol Empire. One part remained a part of the Golden Horde and left place-names and clan-names in western Kazakhstan (i.e. Mad'yar). Some others were found with the Chaghatai. The Madzhar clan appeared in the army of Sheibani Uzbek khan, some lived between Bukhara and Samarkand, some lived among the Khivan Uzbeks. (I suspect most of this information is based upon known clan names Madyar and Macar among the Kazakhs and Uzbeks.) Now in the 20th century (1999 to be exact), Mihaly Benko met with some in the Mongolian Altai.
Extracts from the book:
"In Hungary it had been reported that a tribe named "Mazsar" was living in western Kazakhstan, in territories that were off-limits to foreigners in Soviet times. I expressed my opinion that we Hungarians had to learn everything we could about a tribe with this name, living in Central Asia... Besides, the town of Uralsk, said to be the center of the Mazsars' area of settlement, is only 350 km south of Magna Hungarian, where Brother Julian, the envoy of Hungarian king Bela IV, found the Eastern Hungarians in 1237.
"Maszars live here too!" my hosts exclaimed. "Near us, in the valley of the Hovd River and on the alpine pastures of the Cengel Hairhan Uul. Why didn't you ever tell us that you are looking for them!?"
"
"Their names and the language they speak are Kazakh. Even so, the real Kazakhs distinguish themselves from the Mazsars."
"On occasion the Kazakhs of the Mongolian Altai wear silver fitted belts and put silver fitted saddles on their horses. The frames of the fittings are symbols of the tribe or the clan of the Kazakh man. Only among the Mazsars did I see fittings with palmettos that bore a strong resemblance to the fittings of the ancient Hungarians' belts and saddles.
I saw wooden headboards only in the Mazsar cemetery in the Mongolian Altai.
I was most interested in hearing the Mazsar legends of origin... But to my great surprise, the Mazsars told me legends directly paralleling Hungarian legends about the "deer people"...
"We are the deer people, and we headed westward on the track of a wandering stag a thousand years ago. We clashed with a very strong people around the border of Asia and Europe. Our brothers were fighting; many of them fell in action... Those who survived marched farther west. We who are living in Asia now are the offspring of those cowards who kid to save their lives..."
A year later, in 2000, Benko returned and met with other Mazsars:
"A thousand years ago we wandered westward. Far from here, over the Syr Darya River, near an enormous lake, our people clashed with another nation. We lost the battle. Our brothers fought bravely, and many of them perished; those who survived, marched further westward. But there were also cowards, children, women and very old people among us who had not taken part in the battle; they hid away. They were our ancestors who later returned to Asia
We also have another legend, that we wandered following a stag. We did not hunt the animal; we followed it. The deer knows very well where rich pastures and thick forests can be found, so it is useful to follow this animal as it wanders. Our ancestors got bored following the stag such a long way, and they turned back. Our more steadfast brothers followed the track of the deer further westward."
"What happened to your brothers who wandered further westward?"
"As far as we know, they are living behind a mountain on the small continent now. Are they your people?"
"Yes, we are they."
"Far away from here, you must have kept our old customs and language better than we did."
"We kept the language, but we became Christians and ploughmen."
"Then neither you nor we are the same as we were. Neither of us has the right to criticize the other."
"
The story goes like this:
The Eastern Cumanians were being defeated by the Mongols. A combined Russian-Cumanian force was severely defeated at the Khalkha River. In 1227, the Western Cumanians declared themselves to be subjects to the Kingdom of Hungary and converted to Christianity in order to seek protection from the Mongols. In 1229, an Episcopate attached to the Archbishop in Esztergom was established in southern Moldavia for these Cumans. Prince Bela saw a need to extend Hungarian intelligence eastward due to this religio-political change. Thus an old legend about Hungarians who stayed behind in "Scythia" was given new life and Bela funded Dominican travels into Scythia.
In 1232, a group of Dominican friars set off on a quest to meet "Eastern Magyars". After three years, a Friar Otto met with Hungarian-speaking people "in a pagan country". He learned from them where the Eastern Magyars lived and then returned to Hungary instead of trying to go visit them. Another group of Dominican friars set off in 1235 using information from this report. Of these monks, Friar Julian ended up traveling to Magna Bulgaria and met a Magyar woman. She told him they lived two day's away to the east "at the Large Etil River" or Ulugh Etil, Volga.
There's two independent reports from the 1200s on Eastern Magyars. So what happened with them? According the Harmatta, they joined with the Mongols. These Eastern Magyars were dispersed throughout the Mongol Empire. One part remained a part of the Golden Horde and left place-names and clan-names in western Kazakhstan (i.e. Mad'yar). Some others were found with the Chaghatai. The Madzhar clan appeared in the army of Sheibani Uzbek khan, some lived between Bukhara and Samarkand, some lived among the Khivan Uzbeks. (I suspect most of this information is based upon known clan names Madyar and Macar among the Kazakhs and Uzbeks.) Now in the 20th century (1999 to be exact), Mihaly Benko met with some in the Mongolian Altai.
Extracts from the book:
"In Hungary it had been reported that a tribe named "Mazsar" was living in western Kazakhstan, in territories that were off-limits to foreigners in Soviet times. I expressed my opinion that we Hungarians had to learn everything we could about a tribe with this name, living in Central Asia... Besides, the town of Uralsk, said to be the center of the Mazsars' area of settlement, is only 350 km south of Magna Hungarian, where Brother Julian, the envoy of Hungarian king Bela IV, found the Eastern Hungarians in 1237.
"Maszars live here too!" my hosts exclaimed. "Near us, in the valley of the Hovd River and on the alpine pastures of the Cengel Hairhan Uul. Why didn't you ever tell us that you are looking for them!?"
"
"Their names and the language they speak are Kazakh. Even so, the real Kazakhs distinguish themselves from the Mazsars."
"On occasion the Kazakhs of the Mongolian Altai wear silver fitted belts and put silver fitted saddles on their horses. The frames of the fittings are symbols of the tribe or the clan of the Kazakh man. Only among the Mazsars did I see fittings with palmettos that bore a strong resemblance to the fittings of the ancient Hungarians' belts and saddles.
I saw wooden headboards only in the Mazsar cemetery in the Mongolian Altai.
I was most interested in hearing the Mazsar legends of origin... But to my great surprise, the Mazsars told me legends directly paralleling Hungarian legends about the "deer people"...
"We are the deer people, and we headed westward on the track of a wandering stag a thousand years ago. We clashed with a very strong people around the border of Asia and Europe. Our brothers were fighting; many of them fell in action... Those who survived marched farther west. We who are living in Asia now are the offspring of those cowards who kid to save their lives..."
A year later, in 2000, Benko returned and met with other Mazsars:
"A thousand years ago we wandered westward. Far from here, over the Syr Darya River, near an enormous lake, our people clashed with another nation. We lost the battle. Our brothers fought bravely, and many of them perished; those who survived, marched further westward. But there were also cowards, children, women and very old people among us who had not taken part in the battle; they hid away. They were our ancestors who later returned to Asia
We also have another legend, that we wandered following a stag. We did not hunt the animal; we followed it. The deer knows very well where rich pastures and thick forests can be found, so it is useful to follow this animal as it wanders. Our ancestors got bored following the stag such a long way, and they turned back. Our more steadfast brothers followed the track of the deer further westward."
"What happened to your brothers who wandered further westward?"
"As far as we know, they are living behind a mountain on the small continent now. Are they your people?"
"Yes, we are they."
"Far away from here, you must have kept our old customs and language better than we did."
"We kept the language, but we became Christians and ploughmen."
"Then neither you nor we are the same as we were. Neither of us has the right to criticize the other."
"