Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Thread Started on Apr 21, 2010, 11:24pm »
Dear forum members,
The topic was touched upon earlier in one of the threads and Hjernespiser was kind enough to ad a very relevant argument about the reconstruction of the clothing of ancient Hungarians.
As a growing number of history enthusiasts and Hungarian citizens with patriotic feelings start wearing for certain occasions what they believe are reconstructions of ancient Hungarian clothing, one can't help but notice an increasing diversion into fantasy clothing of choice. Its of course one's choice to wear what they want to, although it concerns me to see lesser stress on authentic evidences.
I would like to have a serious discussion here about the possible styles of clothing of the ancient nomadic Hungarians based upon sources.
To start the discussion let us look at the contemporary (or almost contemporary) sources depicting Hungarians of the time which could give minimal clue to start with:
Contemporary depictions
Russian archaeologists have uncovered two archaeological finds that quite likely bear depictions of ancient Hungarians. Although the similar artistic style of nomadic people makes it difficult or almost impossible differentiating between ethnic groups. Despite this, minor identifying traits have been found on Hungarian goldsmith's work from a certain period onwards, but as is the case with the Nagyszentmiklós treasures the question remains open about associating certain finds with specific ethnic groups.
1. Russian archaeologists tend to associate the following depiction of a rider on a 9th century silver bowl from the Volga region with Hungarians rather than Volga-Bulgarians:
Here is another drawing of the same engraving, but with additional details, that I am not totally certain are authentic. The caption even has got the archaeological site wrong:
Source: Árpád népe (Árpád's people) by Gyula László, Helikon publications, Budapest, 1988, picture 49
2. A very recent depiction I have come upon, although I have read about the find two years ago. Found at Staraya Riazan, Russia, the article mentions that it might be a work of 9th century Hungarian goldsmiths from the Kievan Rus state area. The article also mentions a dancing girl on the same silverware although this isn't shown.
Because I have not seen it yet in any authenticated expert book publications I am having doubts about assigning any ethnic affiliations to it.
3. From the Ukraine a tenth century decorated horn from Cernigov is thought to be Hungarian because of the related finds (sabretache plate): http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?s....e=post&id=14338 and techniques and palmetta (floral) patterns used:
The two figures:
The horn:
The palmetta pattern of the Horn: Compare the above pattern to the high ranking Hungarians sword kept at the Vienna treasury also known as "Attila's sword"(unauthentically).
Source: B.A. Rybakov: Russian applied Art of tenth-thirteenth centuries. Aurora, Leningrad, 1970
After this we are finished with contemporary figural depictions that could help, because Hungarian art avoided figural representation (a possible Islamic influence).
Western depictions of ancient Hungarians (almost certainly representing ancient Hungarian):
1. Decorations of capital stones from the early 12th century Regensburg, Germany:
Source: Regensburg museum of archaeology.
2. Mural from the Aquileia cathedral, late 12th century, North-East Italy:
Mounted archer chased by an armored knight
From the territory of Hungary. Earliest depictions of Hungarian clothing(?):
I have not mentioned yet the illustrations from the Hungarian chronicle Chronicon Pictum which might be influenced by Cumanian and Ias clothing, but I will be posting relevant examples from there also.
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #1 on Apr 22, 2010, 1:04am »
Later depictions:
1. Byzantine source 13th century:
Hungarians pursuing the Bulgarian ruler Simeon the Ist:
Source: National Library, Madrid.
2. 14th century Hungary, from the Chronicon Pictum:
Arrival of the Hungarians and legend of the white horse:
Legend of Lél
Chief Örs
Chief Vérbulcsú
The Western sources of the time either depict Ancient Hungarians as Anatolian Turks, Arabs or even simply depict them in the Western fashion of the time.
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #4 on Apr 22, 2010, 1:47pm »
Archaeological reconstructions:
Gyula László
A pioneer in the field was renowned archaeologist and artist Gyula László. Based upon archeological finds he used his artistic skill to give a better insight into the clothing of ancient Hungarians.
A group of males
a)(Top) Reconstruction of collars of Conquest era male shirts decorated with metal ornaments. (Gyula László's reconstruction). b) (Bottom), Hungarian female wear from Bolsije Tigani (Russia) (reconstructed by E.A. Halikova).
Male and female clothing
Male clothing reconstruction
Gyula László's publication "50 drawing on the Hungarian conquest" became popular among the public, here are a few illustrations from the book:
"Chieftain Álmos" (by Gyula László)
"The blood covenant of the seven Hungarian tribes" (by Gyula László)
"Árpád and the Székelys" (by Gyula László)
"Sword dance" (by Gyula László)
"Riders" (by Gyula László) Gyula László's reconstructions became base-work for further reconstructions and was impacting general public perception on ancient Hungarians through the film: "Honfoglalás" (Conquest of the Homeland) made for the millecentenary (1100 years anniversary) commemoration for the conquest of Hungary.
Screen shot from the film Honfoglalás:
Other reconstructions:
Female wear reconstructions from grave finds at Várpalota and Orosháza by Ágota Perémi and István Dienes (from a 1993 publication).
Female clothing reconstructions from finds at Sárrétudvar by Ibolya M. Nepper (1991 and 1993 publications).
Reconstructions of finds from Algyő by Margit Kováts, Béla Kürti & Árpád Szűcs
From a 1995 publication by Ferenc Glatz Nomadic yurt
Reconstructions by László Költő és Zsolt Nyári
Footwear reconstructions from Tiszaeszlár, Buj, Koroncó & Karos reconstruction and field drawings by (Dezső Csallány, Gyula László, László Révész), from a 1993 publication.
Reconstructions of the wear, weaponary & status symbols of the leading member in his society, at Karos grave number 52, burial ground II.
Reconstruction of woman from grave number 47 at Karos. The state of the find:
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,150 Location: California
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #5 on Apr 23, 2010, 7:52am »
Haha, yes, such fantasy! Especially the costumes in that Honfoglalas movie! I love how, in that movie, the Pechenegs (the bad guys) were dressed up like typical Hollywood Hun barbarians while the heros (the Hungarians) were more "civilized".
I really don't agree with the Gyula Laszlo reconstructions. It's like they're done in a complete vacuum outside of what was actually the fashions of the day out in the southern Russian steppes.
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #6 on Apr 24, 2010, 2:02am »
Quote:
Haha, yes, such fantasy! Especially the costumes in that Honfoglalas movie! I love how, in that movie, the Pechenegs (the bad guys) were dressed up like typical Hollywood Hun barbarians while the heroes (the Hungarians) were more "civilized".
LOL I cracked up when I saw the Pechenegs in the movie! Just a little recap for you guys the "Honfoglalás experience" (and especially for you Hjernespiser, watch the Petchenegs from 3:25 onwards ):
Quote:
I really don't agree with the Gyula Laszlo reconstructions. It's like they're done in a complete vacuum outside of what was actually the fashions of the day out in the southern Russian steppes.
I think Gyula Lászlóz's reconstructions were made earlier than the discovery of archaeological finds that would hamper prior reconstruction theories. Note another thing, he also tried to make use of ethnographic material and included clothing that is thought to be heritages of possible ancient Hungarian wear. The first picture of his reconstructions that I posted (depicting five men). Three men on the right are wearing such ethnographic clothing items. Two of the three wear a type vest that is known in Eurasia, but Hungary is the westernmost country where it is found. And the man on the far right wears a a Szur coat, which is typically Hungarian, worn by Hungarian shepherds.
What I think even if the szur coat does have roots from pre-conquest Hungarians, I am sure it went through very prominent changes during the last 1000 years.
About failed reconstructions: A very good example is the first attempt to reconstruct the bow-case of Karos:
Which was later corrected to:
Or there's the case which Hjernespiser mentioned, how archaeologists aren't sure weather decorative ornaments on the head of women's grave finds were part of a headband or part of hat.
Its clear that archaeological reconstruction of clothes is just guesswork and mostly the position of buttons can help to attempt to roughly identify how they might have looked like.
Here are some quite recent reconstructions of ancient Hungarian women's caftans which most probably also considered the contemporary Moshchevaya Balka burials (especially seen influential on the 4th picture bellow):
Hjernespiser mentioned two important contemporary sources which could give very important clues on what ancient Hungarians might have actually worn:
1. Representation of contemporary Bulgarians in Byzantine sources:
Bulgarian soldiers slaughter Christians, from the Menology of Basil II, 10th century
Omurtag orders the murder of Christians
Omurtag
Omurtag sends delegation to the Byzantine emperor.
Omurtag crushing rebel Slavs. Note the leather (or felt) hats and armor. I wonder if this reflects the fashion of the Steppe?
What was surprising for me was the presence of button linings, which I first believed to be something of much later Persian origin that was adopted by the Ottomans, and from them passed on to 16th century Hungarians, but I was totally wrong.
2. Is the Moshchevaya Balka Alanian-Adygo burial site from the Caucasus, that preserved clothing due to climatic conditions.
Here are some contemporary Turkic engravings (I guess they are contemporary, because it was on the same page as the reconstructions of the Russian site. Please post any other contemporary Turkic depiction you know about or find):
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,150 Location: California
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #7 on Apr 24, 2010, 6:45am »
Chichak,
Excellent. Thanks for this thread.
Quote:
As a growing number of history enthusiasts and Hungarian citizens with patriotic feelings start wearing for certain occasions what they believe are reconstructions of ancient Hungarian clothing, one can't help but notice an increasing diversion into fantasy clothing of choice. Its of course one's choice to wear what they want to, although it concerns me to see lesser stress on authentic evidences.
There's an organization called the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) that started in the US many years ago. I doubt they're very active in Hungary, but I mention them because they're an organization of historic re-creators who strive for authenticity. As such, their members do a lot of research into historic costume. There happens to be a Yahoo Group (magyar-sca, almost defunct now) devoted to historic costume of Hungary. The SCA's time period tends to be middle ages, but some of the members in magyar-sca also investigate the Conquest period. One lady, whom I respect on that forum, last mentioned this about the subject:
The front closure garment is identical to the Alanic finds of Moschevaja Balka and the cross-over type kaftan shape is consistant with the position of metal mount grave findings shown in Emle'kezzetek Utatok Kezdete're... by Re've'sz La'szlo.
Do you have any information about this book by Revesz Laszlo?
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,150 Location: California
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #8 on Apr 24, 2010, 6:50am »
Buried somewhere on magyar-sca is discussion about fabrics too. Some of the reconstructions above have fabric that looks almost too eastern. The Conquest Magyars would have had available to them the best silks and designs from the Byzantines and post-Sassanid Persia. You can see from some of the drawings above that the wealthy classes would have had kaftans made whole from these expensive fabrics while those lower on the socio-economic scale would use scraps of expensive fabric for decorative edges. One of the Arabic chroniclers wrote that the Magyars all were richly dressed, which could indicate that a higher percentage of them wore clothes made fully of expensive fabrics.
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #11 on Apr 24, 2010, 10:31am »
Quote:
There's an organization called the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA) that started in the US many years ago. I doubt they're very active in Hungary, but I mention them because they're an organization of historic re-creators who strive for authenticity. As such, their members do a lot of research into historic costume.
I don't think the SCA is present in Hungary. It looks like an organization that's active in Anglo-Saxon countrys.
Although Hungary's got a bunch of re-enactor groups some of which use the word "traditional" a lot, like "traditional Hungarian archery" "traditional Hungarian martial art". As far as I know the word traditional means an unceasing continuity in an activity, and we are talking about stuff that hasn't been around for hundreds if years in Hungary. Composite bows have been out of use since the 17th century and well to be honest "Hungarian martial art" might sound good, but it has never been institutionalized in the East-Asian sense and the training of ancient Hungarian warriors is almost impossible to reconstruct. Although I am sure its just a matter of time that a re-enactment group will prioritize on Historically authentic looks.
Quote:
There happens to be a Yahoo Group (magyar-sca, almost defunct now) devoted to historic costume of Hungary. The SCA's time period tends to be middle ages, but some of the members in magyar-sca also investigate the Conquest period.
Wow, sounds promising! Do I need to make an account so that I can gain access to all the content?
Quote:
The front closure garment is identical to the Alanic finds of Moschevaja Balka and the cross-over type kaftan shape is consistant with the position of metal mount grave findings shown in Emle'kezzetek Utatok Kezdete're... by Re've'sz La'szlo.
Do you have any information about this book by Revesz Laszlo?
Yes I do! László Révész is an archaeologist who excavated the Karos grave sites and other sites from the age of Hungarian conquest. http://www.animakonyv.hu/showimage.php?LOID=85503559&SIZE=large The book gives insight to the conquest era through his excavation material. Used as a textbook in the archaeology course of Hungarian universities and a gold mine for enthusiasts.
Some guy even made a slide-show video about the pictures of excavation materials in the book:
By the way I think the lady you were referring to meant the Karos excavation site when mentioning the cross-over type caftans. But I am not entirely sure.
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #12 on Apr 24, 2010, 1:52pm »
Quote:
Some of the reconstructions above have fabric that looks almost too eastern.
I agree with you, these two reconstructions are probably showing far eastern textiles.
This one however I believe shows Hungarian patterns, like the designs on many sabretache plates, such as the conquest period Galgóc find (Today Holvec, Slovakia).
I doubt Hungarians bought raw silk that they would later work weave them with their own patterns. They bought finished products from Byzantine, Arab and Khwarezmian tradesmen, so I think the Hungarian patterns in silk are irrelevant and unauthentic. (Oh and that's the bath robe style you've mentioned isn't it? ).
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,150 Location: California
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #13 on Apr 24, 2010, 7:30pm »
I agree that they probably weren't weaving silk fabric with their own patterns, but I wouldn't go so far as to interpret that to mean that they didn't do any weaving. (another discussion)
As for the finish products available to them, I wouldn't entirely dismiss the idea of fabric with similar patterns to what you see on the sabretache above. Those are Sassanian influenced designs. They are not far removed aesthetically from the fabric on the Alanic kaftans, for example. What's exciting for the re-creator is that sometimes you can find a shop online that is selling some modern print or brocade of historic Byzantine or Sassanian fabric.
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,150 Location: California
Re: Discussion on ancient Hungarian wear « Reply #14 on Apr 25, 2010, 7:49am »
Here's the magyar-sca Yahoo Group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magyar-sca/ It has been rather inactive for the past few years, but there's some interesting stuff in the archives.
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