are oghuz and uygur related?

This is a very problematic issue indeed. The word Oġuz (Oghuz) means "(politicially united) tribes"; the root word is Oq meaning "Arrow" (a symbol of submission among the Turks) and -z is a suffix indicating plurality. Even though there are also other theories linking the word to some other words like Öküz (Ox) and Oġuš (Clan), the "Arrows (Tribes)" theory I described above is the most accepted one. The word Oġuz was Oġur (Oghur) in Old Western Turkic. The word Oq has a difference with the real Turkic word for "tribe", which is Bod.

There were at least three different peoples who had the name Oq or Oġuz (Oghuz): the On Oq (Ten Arrow, known in Chinese as Shíxìng / Shih-hsing 十姓 meaning "Ten Surnames/Clans"), the Toquz Oġuz (Nine Tribes, known in Chinese as Jiǔxìng / Chiu-hsing 九姓 with the same meaning) and the Oġuz (known in Arabic as al-Ġûziyya ﺍﻠﻐﻮﺰﻴﻪ, in Classical Persian as Ġûzyân ﻏﻮﺰﻴﺎﻦ, in Greek as Ouzoi Ουζοι). The On Oq were formed in the 630s from the Turkic tribes that inhabited the Yedisu (Jetisu Жетісу, Semireč'e Семиречье) region under the rule of the Western Türk (Batı Gök Türk, Xī Tūjué / Hsi T'u-chüeh 西突厥) Qaġanate. The Toquz Oġuz were a political union formed in the 620s by several Turkic tribes and peoples who lived in Mongolia; ethnicially, they belonged to the *Tägräg (Tiĕlè / T'ieh-le 鐵勒), a major group of Turkic peoples who lived in Central Asia during the 6th-8th centuries. Apart from these, the Šinė Us Шинэ Ус Inscription erected by the Uyġurs (Uyghurs) during the 750s mention the Säkiz Oġuz (Eight Tribes), but we know almost nothing about them; I think they might be the Toquz Oġuz who did not immediately submit to the Uyġurs. They also can be connected with the Naiman (Naiman means "Eight" in Mongolian) people who lived in Western Mongolia during the 12th century, but there is a big time gap between the two peoples, so this connection is very dubious. One thing I should mention here is that the Türük Oġuz mentioned in the inscriptions of Köl Tigin (732) and Bilgä Qaġan (735) do not mean the Toquz Oġuz or the western Oġuz; this expression probably indicates the tribes that made up the Türük (Tūjué / T'u-chüeh 突厥, Gök Türk) people (tribes like Āshĭnà / A-shih-na 阿史那, Āshĭdè / A-shih-te 阿史德, etc).

So, the problem lies here: are the Toquz Oġuz and the later Oġuz in the west the same? Or are the Oġuz descendents of the On Oq? Things get more confusing if someone reads the Ṭabâ'î al-Ḥayavân ﻄﺒﺎﻌﻰ ﺍﻠﺤﻴﻮﺍﻦ written by Šarafa'z-Zamân Ṭâhir al-Marvazî ﺸﺮﻒ ﺍﻠﺰﻤﺎﻦ ﻄﺎﻬﺮ ﺍﻠﻤﺮﻮﺰﻯ (died approx. at 1120) around 1120. Here, al-Marvazî says that the Oġuz, who were composed of 12 tribes, were made up of three major groups: the Toquz Oġuz, the Uyġurs and the Üčġurs. This contradicts the statements found in other Islamic sources, because they clearly distinguish the Toquz Oġuz and the Oġuz who lived north of the Aral. In fact, the name Uyġur is rarely used by Muslim authors; most of the time, they are called Toquz Oġuz. We know from Chinese sources that the Uyġurs were a member of the Toquz Oġuz Alliance and in fact, they were the leaders of them. No wonder why the Uyġur inscriptions of the 750s mention the names Toquz Oġuz and Uyġur together. Even after the fall of the Uyġur Qaġanate of Mongolia in 840, the Muslim authors kept using the name Toquz Oġuz for the Uyġurs. So, the info given by al-Marvazî is dubious, and probably a confusion. As for the the name Üčġur, we may suggest that this is Üč Oġur meaning "Three Tribes" in Old Western Turkic, but it is more probable that this name indicates the Üč Oq branch of the Oġuz people (the description given by al-Marvazi places them in the Kazakh Steppe, not in the territory of the Volga Bulgars).

There is one short yet very important info often negleted by the scholars. The Taryat Тарйат Inscription erected by the Uyġurs around the same time with the Šinė Us Inscription (750s) give us a long list of tribes and peoples living in Mongolia who submitted to the Uyġurs. Among them are two peoples, the Aba and Igdir, which are identified by Talât Tekin as the Yïva and Igdir tribes found among the western Oġuz. Besides, some Muslim sources mention that a group of the Oġuz living north of the Aral migrated to this region during the second half of the 8th century. We have a contemporary record from 822 which shows us that the Arabs took two thousand captives from the Oġuz living north of the Aral and sent them to the Abbasid Caliphate; the son of one of these later founded the famous Tolunid Dynasty in Egypt.

So, if you ask my personal opinion, the Oġuz who lived in the western Kazakh Steppe between early 9th-late 10th centuries were a group of Turkic peoples of whom at least some of them migrated from Mongolia in the 8th-9th centuries. They were probably not an ethnic group in the beginning, but maybe due to a common cause (perhaps political?), similar to how the Toquz Oġuz Alliance was formed against the Türk Qaġanate in Mongolia during the 620s, they united before, during or after their migration, and later formed a separate (and big) ethnic group. It is also probable that they included some Toquz Oġuz groups who did not submit to the Uyġurs, as well as, maybe, the On Oq tribes living in Yedisu; but we do not have solid evidences for these. It is hard to say that the Toquz Oġuz in Mongolia were the same with the Oġuz living in Western Turkistan.

With pleasure


Well yes, this 11th-12th century guy named al-Marvazî puts the Oġuz and Uyġurs in the same stock, but as I said, other and earlier Islamic sources always distinguish the two. al-Marvazî probably mistook some informations and confused the two peoples because of the similarity of the names. The same mistake is still made by some modern scholars ;D

The word Il perfectly stands for the English word "Realm", because it designates both a political and a geographical name. Unlike Muslim Turks, who distinguished the two meanings with the words el for "land" and the Arabic word devlet for "state", the pre-Islamic Turks did not distinguish the two meanings. In political context, "Il" is used for a place that is brought under rule, so from this useage, later the meaning "peace" was created (hence the Turkic word, also used by the Mongols, Elči meaning "emissary").

On the other hand, the earliest useage of Ulus or Uluš (Ulush) among the Turks in the 8th century (found on the inscription of Köl Tigin) had the meaning "city-state". Basicly, Ulus means "piece of partition", which probably drives from the Turkic word Ül- (partition). The Mongols used this word for the pieces of the empire given to the sons of the high rulers. It was in Modern Turkey during the 1930s when it got the meaning "nation".


We can continue from this topic

Thanx dear Keagan That's my duty, you know

Thanks I wish my memory was stronger