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Steppe History Forum :: History of Central Asia :: The Gokturk and Uyghur Period :: 8th-9th century Uyghur Military

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Topic: 8th-9th century Uyghur Military (Read 1,411 times)

H. Ihsan Erkoc
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8th-9th century Uyghur Military
« Thread Started on Nov 18, 2004, 7:25pm »

(Originially posted by a Guest at October 10, 2004)
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Does anyone know a detailed description of the military of the 8th-9th century Uyghurs? Like what were their battle tactics, what kind of units they employed (which I would imagine remain largely steppe cavalry), how did their units look like, their armour, weaponry, unit names, etc., like the stuff you would get from Osprey books or other military books. Some of the Uyghurs at this time were Manichaeist and some Buddhist, and I also heard that during the Uyghur empire in Mongolia, the Uyghurs were already half sedentary and were one of the few peoples before modern times to have actually built sedentary-style cities in Mongolia (Uyghur capital was razed to the ground by the invading Kirghiz when they invaded Mongolia). Since the Uyghurs were part sedentary, am I wrong in assuming that the Uyghurs might have employed regular infantries, or at least much more than other peoples of Mongolia. Also, Uyghurs during this time are still predominantly the same racial stock as the Tujue or other peoples in Mongolia, and it was when they fled to the Tarim Basin that they picked up Caucasoid traits from the local Tocharians there, or am I wrong? How did their buildings look like? Also, does anyone happen to have any pictures of the Uyghur military units, like the colour plates in the Osprey books? Or does Osprey have a book on these Turkic peoples or at least have a colour plate of their military units?

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(Originially posted by me at October 10, 2004)
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[quote="ihsan"]
Quote:

Does anyone know a detailed description of the military of the 8th-9th century Uyghurs? Like what were their battle tactics, what kind of units they employed (which I would imagine remain largely steppe cavalry), how did their units look like, their armour, weaponry, unit names, etc., like the stuff you would get from Osprey books or other military books.

I haven't studied Orkhon Uyghur military in detail but I'm sure they were very similar to the Eastern Tujue. They had important numbers of heavy cavalry, for example. If you have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes, you can see examples of Uyghur armored warriors.

Quote:

I also heard that during the Uyghur empire in Mongolia, the Uyghurs were already half sedentary and were one of the few peoples before modern times to have actually built sedentary-style cities in Mongolia (Uyghur capital was razed to the ground by the invading Kirghiz when they invaded Mongolia).

Yes, they built Qara Balghasun near Ötüken. Arabic travelers describe the city as a large and busy trade center filled with marketplaces and temples IIRC.

Qara Balghasun was destroyed by the Qïrghïz in the spring of 840. Here is a drawing showing the city's ruins:

[image]

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Since the Uyghurs were part sedentary, am I wrong in assuming that the Uyghurs might have employed regular infantries, or at least much more than other peoples of Mongolia.

Sorry, I don't know yet

ops:

Quote:

Also, Uyghurs during this time are still predominantly the same racial stock as the Tujue or other peoples in Mongolia, and it was when they fled to the Tarim Basin that they picked up Caucasoid traits from the local Tocharians there, or am I wrong?

Yes, you're correct. However, funny thing is that the Uyghurs of Xinjiang are more Mongoloid-looking (though not completely Mongoloid) than the old Uyghurs of Mongolia :?

Quote:

Also, does anyone happen to have any pictures of the Uyghur military units, like the colour plates in the Osprey books?

This picture shows armored Uyghur riders from Turfan (Gaochang), I guess Uyghur heavy cavalry from Mongolia weren't very different-looking than these

Quote:

Or does Osprey have a book on these Turkic peoples or at least have a colour plate of their military units?

Most of Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes is about the Turkic peoples of 4th-12th centuries, that would be the best for you. It's colored plates show Xiongnu, Huns, Tujue, Uyghurs, Qïrghïz, Khazars, Pechenegs, Qïpchaqs, Avars, Bulgars (both from the Balkans and Volga), etc.[/quote]

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(Originially posted by UnregisteredUser at October 11, 2004)
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[quote="ihsan"]
I haven't studied Orkhon Uyghur military in detail but I'm sure they were very similar to the Eastern Tujue. They had important numbers of heavy cavalry, for example. If you have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes, you can see examples of Uyghur aromred warriors. [/quote]

I don't have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes and can't be getting any of the stuff I want for now, so can you please be so kind as to post them here on the boards? 8)

[quote="ihsan"]Yes, they built Qara Balghasun near Ötüken. Arabic travelers describe the city as a large and busy trade center filled with marketplaces and temples IIRC.[/quote]

Was Qara Balghasun the only city mentioned in historical sources that the Uyghurs built in Mongolia?

[quote="ihsan"]Yes, you're correct. However, funny thing is that the Uyghurs of Xinjiang are more Mongoloid-looking (though not completely Mongoloid) than the old Uyghurs of Mongolia :? [/quote]

That's odd. A lot of the modern-day Uyghurs in East Turkestan I've seen do not look Mongoloid for the most part; their Tocharian and Caucasoid traits stand out very obvious (ie Caucasoid skin, deep eye sockets, high nose bridge, lacking Mongoloid eyelid, etc.), and they only look slightly Mongoloid, although I have heard from somewhere that they are found to have around 60%-70% Mongoloid genes in them according to modern genetic testing. And yes, the more Mongoloid-looking Uyghurs I can understand because during modern-times, the late 19th-early 20th century, some Chinese settlers went into the eastern part of the region, and so mixing can occur, but other possibilities also include mixing from Mongols in the eastern regions.

But I am curious. Where did you find that the old Uyghurs of Mongolia look more Caucasoid than the ones now? I thought the Caucasoid traits found in Uyghurs are largely from the Tocharians and other Iranians in the Tarim Basin, that before they migrated there, they are largely Mongoloid and of the same racial stock like most other Turkics in Mongolia. There is no evidence of Caucasoid expansion before the European Age of Imperialism beyond the Altai mountains (the Scythians at one time briefly held territories bordering the Altais) and the Ainu aboriginals of Japan are found to be more proto-Mongoloid by some anthropologists rather than Caucasoid. Furthermore, if the old Uyghurs of Mongolia were more Caucasoid than the already Caucasoid-looking Uyghurs of East Turkestan, then the old Uyghurs would look very much like white/Caucasoid horse nomads and would probably resemble the Scythians and Sarmatians in appearance, and also the Uyghurs would definitely leave a genetic imprint on later peoples of Mongolia; but the peoples of Mongolia after the collapse of the Uyghur empire up to present-day were not described as having Caucasoid traits (at least not that I know of) and Turkic tribes under the 13th-century Mongol confederacy like the Naiman, Kereyid, etc. were not outstanding in appearance from the rest of the other neighboring nomads (who were Mongoloid in racial type). Besides, if the Uyghurs were that Caucasoid, they would get a mention in the Chinese history annals (Chinese describe the Dutch, Portuguese, and other Europeans later on as so outstanding in appearance that they were compared to animals, ie cat-eyed, eagle-mouthed, red-haired, etc.), and also the Chinese annals also mention that the peoples to the west of the ancient Gaochang statelet (Turfan) had high nose bridge and deep-eye sockets, people beyond the Pamirs had high nose bridge and hairy skin (although hairy skin may not necessarily be a uniquely Caucasoid trait, depending on the degree of "hairiness"), and there were later accounts of "blue-appled" people in southern East Turkestan. There were mention of some of the Ashina ruling class of the Tujue like Sijin (Muchu Khan) having red-face and brown eyes, but then again, these features are not uniquely Caucasoid traits to begin with (the red-face may have been a result of possessing lighter skin and different levels of exposure to ultraviolet rays, and brown eyes are not uncommon among Mongoloids); however, I do not doubt a small minority of Tujue, like most other steppe nomads, may have picked up Caucasoid traits from Turkestan or other conquered foreign lands like in Persia and the Middle East, western Siberia, and steppe lands in Russia. In addition, the Uyghurs were not identified with nomads like the Yuezhi and the Scythians, who were described as Indo-European nomads and who have been linked to the Loulan mummies found in the Tarim Basin.

[quote="ihsan"]Most of Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes is about the Turkic peoples of 4th-12th centuries, that would be the best for you. It's colored plates show Xiongnu, Huns, Tujue, Uyghurs, Qïrghïz, Khazars, Pechenegs, Qïpchaqs, Avars, Bulgars (both from the Balkans and Volga), etc.[/quote]

The title itself is misleading. I thought the book was about Attila and the European Huns; I didn't know it would cover the major Turkic peoples like Tujue, Uyghur, Huns, etc.

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H. Ihsan Erkoc
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Re: 8th-9th century Uyghur Military
« Reply #1 on Nov 18, 2004, 7:27pm »

(Originially posted by me at October 11, 2004)
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Hehe, you seem to know a lot of things, that's good for our forum 8) And thanks for registering, perhaps you can go to the Meeting Hall and introduce yourself in the sticky thread there :wink:

Quote:

I don't have Osprey's Attila and the Nomad Hordes and can't be getting any of the stuff I want for now, so can you please be so kind as to post them here on the boards? 8)

Sorry, I don't have a free host and my scanner is not working

Hmm, perhaps Temujin can help us?

Quote:

Was Qara Balghasun the only city mentioned in historical sources that the Uyghurs built in Mongolia?

That is what I know. As I said, I'm not very knowledged on the Uyghurs.

Quote:

That's odd. A lot of the modern-day Uyghurs in East Turkestan I've seen do not look Mongoloid for the most part; their Tocharian and Caucasoid traits stand out very obvious (ie Caucasoid skin, deep eye sockets, high nose bridge, lacking Mongoloid eyelid, etc.), and they only look slightly Mongoloid, although I have heard from somewhere that they are found to have around 60%-70% Mongoloid genes in them according to modern genetic testing. And yes, the more Mongoloid-looking Uyghurs I can understand because during modern-times, the late 19th-early 20th century, some Chinese settlers went into the eastern part of the region, and so mixing can occur, but other possibilities also include mixing from Mongols in the eastern regions.

Ah, I'm very sorry, I meant the Uyghurs of Gaochang, not Mongolia

ops:

ops:

Anyway, old Turfanese Uyghurs still seemed more Caucasoid to me, than the modern Uyghurs (I know quiet a few Uyghurs by person, I've also seen many images of them). As you said, Caucasoid features among the Uyghurs must be because of Tokharian and Iranic influence but why most modern Uyghurs are having less Caucasoid features? I mean all the Uyghurs.

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There were mention of some of the Ashina ruling class of the Tujue like Sijin (Muchu Khan) having red-face and brown eyes

That is Mugan Qaghan, not Mochuo :wink:

Quote:

The title itself is misleading. I thought the book was about Attila and the European Huns; I didn't know it would cover the major Turkic peoples like Tujue, Uyghur, Huns, etc.

Well, it's Attila and the nomad hordes, the book starts from the time of Attila (though it briefly mentions the Xiongnu and people of Tashtyk) and continues up to the 12th century

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(Originially posted by Temujin at October 11, 2004)
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unfortunately my scanner isn't working either, but i found a black/white (more or less) pic of a Uyghur nobleman by M. Gorelik online:

[image]

there is a ew osprey Elite book abotu Steppe nomads, but it did not arrived yet, so i don't know if it has Uyghurs included.

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(Originially posted by me at October 11, 2004)
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Ah, nice pic but I wonder which Uyghur state it shows (Orkhon or Turfan?). Besides, his bows looks more like that of the Mongols :-/

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(Originially posted by warhead at October 27, 2004)
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Did the uighur army have the same organization as the Tujue? From sources, it seem their number aren't as great.

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(Originially posted by me at October 27, 2004)
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They probably had, like most of other Turkic armies.

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(Originially posted by karakhan at October 28, 2004)
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In regard to Uighur physical traits, I believe it vary from oasis to oasis.. Kashgarliks tend to have most Indo-European strains within themself, but more mixed or more Mongoloid in some areas like Turpan. I've seen Uighurs of all kind of physical features. so it really depend. But It can be safe to say most have more dominant caucasoid features but retain the "round-ish" type Mongoloid feature. In something related, I will post about the Yugurs soon (Sarigh Uighurs)

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(Originially posted by me at October 28, 2004)
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Ah, the Buddhist Uyghurs of Gansu!

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Nomad, rider that men know the least
Nomad, where you come from no one knows
Nomad, where you go to no one tells

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UnregisteredUser
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Re: 8th-9th century Uyghur Military
« Reply #2 on Dec 24, 2004, 6:46am »

Quote:

(Originially posted by ihsan on October 11, 2004)

Anyway, old Turfanese Uyghurs still seemed more Caucasoid to me, than the modern Uyghurs (I know quiet a few Uyghurs by person, I've also seen many images of them). As you said, Caucasoid features among the Uyghurs must be because of Tokharian and Iranic influence but why most modern Uyghurs are having less Caucasoid features? I mean all the Uyghurs.

Well, as karakhan tells us, the physical appearance of the Uygurs vary from oasis to oasis. But maybe the reason why Uygurs are generally having less Caucasoid traits is because, as I've said, some of them probably mixed with Han settlers in the region, Mongols, or more original, Mongoloid-looking Turkic peoples like the Kazakhs and Kirghiz? BTW, Yugurs that karakhan mentioned are largely Mongoloid-looking.

Quote:

(Originially posted by Temujin on October 11, 2004)

unfortunately my scanner isn't working either, but i found a black/white (more or less) pic of a Uyghur nobleman by M. Gorelik online:

[image]

there is a ew osprey Elite book abotu Steppe nomads, but it did not arrived yet, so i don't know if it has Uyghurs included.

Hmm, that pic looks similar to the Uygur nobleman depicted in the plate from the Osprey book Attila.... But have you come across a pic of a typical Uygur steppe rider/mounted archer?

The Mounted Archers of the Steppe does not mention and include the Ugyurs, it mostly deals with the equipment, tactics, and lifestyle of the steppe nomads and their mounted archers. There is not too much mention of political events and a detailed history of a certain steppe nomad group. There are 8 plates if I remember and they consist of (in the order that book presents them): 2 plates on the Scythians, 1 plate on the Parthians, 1 plate on the Huns of Europe, 1 plate on the Avars, 1 plate on general 8th century Turkic peoples, 1 plate on the Mongols, and 1 last plate (which is the front cover) that depicts Seljuks and Kypchaks. Furthermore, the author had mentioned that his book specifically dealt with the steppe peoples that had large conflicts with eastern Europe and most of the Middle East, so you won't get any stuff on the Xiongnu (though the plate of the Huns was based on some relic, if I remember correctly, found in the Ordos desert during the Xiongnu period), Xianbei, Tujue, Uygurs, Kirghiz, Khitans, etc.

« Last Edit: Dec 24, 2004, 6:54am by UnregisteredUser »

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jstampfl
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Re: 8th-9th century Uyghur Military
« Reply #3 on Dec 24, 2004, 6:53pm »

Quote:

and I also heard that during the Uyghur empire in Mongolia, the Uyghurs were already half sedentary and were one of the few peoples before modern times to have actually built sedentary-style cities in Mongolia (Uyghur capital was razed to the ground by the invading Kirghiz when they invaded Mongolia)

The ruins of the Uyghurs is located about 15 KM north of Xar Xorin (KharKhorin) it is called Xar Belgus today. Within 50 km there are the ruins of 10 other cities that existed before the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan. (Modern Mongolian Tourist Map).

Juvaini in his book "The History of the World-conqueror" tranlated by J.A. Boyle., Claims to have interviewed some Uyghurs when he was writing his book. ( He wrote in Xar Xorin around 1252-53 and finished his book in 1260). The Uyghurs told him that this was their original homeland.

I have seen several of the ruins:

http://www.blueskymongolia.info/images/p11b.jpg
City locate 30 km west of Xar Xorin

the other city ruins are close to Xar Xorin and completely destroyed.

I assume that most of the cities were Uyghur. But some could be Liao (Khitan) or could be the Qïrghïz .

At the time of Genghis Khan, they had at least two cities in the Tarim Basin. Besh-Baligh(five towns), Qara-Khoja(45 km east of Turfan know as "Idiqut-Shehri").

Juvaini also relates that in the time of Mongu Khan, there was much strife between the Mannichean factions and Muslim factions.

« Last Edit: Aug 4, 2008, 11:15am by jstampfl »

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