Most of the Qazaqs belong to one of the three tribal unions - jüz: Senior juz (Ulı jüz), Middle juz (Orta jüz), and Junior juz (Kişi jüz). There are tribes (taypa) and clans (rw) in every juz. There are also three groups outside the juz system: töre (direct descendants of Genghis Khan), qoja (descendants of Arabian missionaries and warriors), and töleñgit (descendants of Oirat and other captives).
Koja/Qoja claim that they are the descendant of the Profet Muhammed. I belive that they are the descendat of the Great General who led the Muslim army under the green flag of the prohet to the east and fought at the battle of Atlas against the Tan empire close to the city Taraz now days. NEVER THE LESS In United Arabic Emirates if you could prove that you are Koja/Qoja you will get the audience with the Emir and if you like will be given the citezenship UAE and all the accomodations with it in UAE. Its not easily made as in fact Arabs keep a long record of all Koja/Qojas in Central Asia. For them its an honer to have Koja as a citizen. (Before the October Revolution in 1917 it was impossible to get mixed with Koja or Tore.)
« Last Edit: Sept 22, 2006, 5:26pm by Nomad (Daz) »
No, most of Qojas do not consider Muhammad as their ancestor.
In fact, the expression "descendant of Muhammad" is not correct, because Muhammad did not have any son, therefore, no legitimate descendants.
There's only one group of Qojas - Seyit-Qoja - who trace their ancestry to Fatima Zahra, the daughter the prophet Muhammad and the wife of caliph Ali.
No they do belive them selfes as the descendants of Muhammad. Who are the ruling families in Arabic Countries such as UAE or SA. From where does the noble families trace their heratage. How could someone equal lead people after himself and when start doing something makes the deal as a God wish. Who can claim the Djihad in Arabic countries? Only the descendants of Prophet Muhammed. It justifies their deal. They have the holy blood in their veins.
Quote:
No, it was quite possible.
Qoja and Tore mixed with local Turkic people quite a lot, that is why they're almost indistinguishable from the local people.
Although, both of these groups were very reluctant of marrying their daughters to the local men, but they married local girls all the time.
I disagree!!! Even men where forced to marry one of thiers. It doesn't matter what he wants it what family thinks is best for him. He is a noble blood such as Jusus Crist. He could not marry anybody else as spoils the blood. And as we talked about the islamization of Qazak. Qoja lives in south of Kazakhstan where before 1917 lived only muslims and praized the holy families as Qojas.
BAWIR$AQ Iltäbär Sweet Qazaq Donut member is offline
Attan! Alaş! Arwaq!
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 661 Location: Qazaqstan
Re: Qazaq Tribes « Reply #10 on Oct 20, 2006, 12:08am »
Quote:
Quote:
No, most of Qojas do not consider Muhammad as their ancestor.
In fact, the expression "descendant of Muhammad" is not correct, because Muhammad did not have any son, therefore, no legitimate descendants.
There's only one group of Qojas - Seyit-Qoja - who trace their ancestry to Fatima Zahra, the daughter the prophet Muhammad and the wife of caliph Ali.
No they do belive them selfes as the descendants of Muhammad.
As I wrote before, only Seyit Qoja trace themselves to Muhammad's daughter.
Other Qojas officially have nothing to do with the Prophet. Most of them are either Muslim missionaries, Muslim soldiers in the times of Qutayba and Ziad ibn Saliha, or descendants of Muhammad's comrades.
According to the historian Muminov, Qojas consist of 9 groups: Aqqorğan. Horasan, Dwana, Qarahan, Seyitqoja, Qılawız, Qırıq-sadaq, Sunaq, and Kereit.
if you're interested in the subject, there's a great book by the KZ historian Yerofeeva "Rodoslovnye kazahskih hanov i kozha" (Ancestry of Qazaq khans and qojas).
Quote:
Who are the ruling families in Arabic Countries such as UAE or SA. From where does the noble families trace their heratage. How could someone equal lead people after himself and when start doing something makes the deal as a God wish. Who can claim the Djihad in Arabic countries? Only the descendants of Prophet Muhammed. It justifies their deal. They have the holy blood in their veins.
Last time I checked, Ottoman sultan was the last caliph (spiritual leader of the Ummah), and he was no descendant of Muhammad
The dynasty of Al Saud traces its origins to the 18th century emir, Muhammad ibn Saud, not the Prophet Muhammad.
Qoja and Tore mixed with local Turkic people quite a lot, that is why they're almost indistinguishable from the local people.
Although, both of these groups were very reluctant of marrying their daughters to the local men, but they married local girls all the time.
I disagree!!! Even men where forced to marry one of thiers. It doesn't matter what he wants it what family thinks is best for him. He is a noble blood such as Jusus Crist. He could not marry anybody else as spoils the blood. And as we talked about the islamization of Qazak. Qoja lives in south of Kazakhstan where before 1917 lived only muslims and praized the holy families as Qojas.
You can "disagree" as much as you can, but a fact is a fact - Qojas and Tores are heavily mixed with local Turks.
Qojas don't look like typical Arabs, they've been mixing a lot, because as missonaries they did not have a common place to live, they had to spread Islam all over the lands of Kazakstan, and therefore they were minority wherever they lived.
Tores would marry lots of local girls. Ablay Khan, for instance, had 6 Kazak wives from Arghin tribe, the grandma of Kenesari Khan was Qalmaq girl. I can try to find you the info on mixes of earlier Golden Hordian khans, too, but it may take some time.
"We run after meat as the possessed And we kill without pity We rejoice and we laugh when the deer falls Hunting's more than just killing for the food "
"Hunting Song" by Korpiklaani
BAWIR$AQ Iltäbär Sweet Qazaq Donut member is offline
Attan! Alaş! Arwaq!
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 661 Location: Qazaqstan
Map « Reply #12 on Jan 15, 2007, 6:27am »
Another map in Cyrillic alphabet
Green and teal colors - Kişi jüz (Lesser Horde) Orange and yellow colors - Orta jüz (Middle Horde) Blue and violet colors - Ulı hüz (Greater Horde)
BAWIR$AQ Iltäbär Sweet Qazaq Donut member is offline
Attan! Alaş! Arwaq!
Joined: Sept 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 661 Location: Qazaqstan
Re: Qazaq Tribes « Reply #13 on Jan 15, 2007, 6:33am »
Quote:
Ulugh Juz does not seem to be that "Ulugh". The lands of Kichi Cuz and Orta Cuz are wider, according to that map above.
True, they are wider. Although the lands of Jetisu (where Uli juz lives) are considered to be among the richest. We say "Jetisu - jer jannati" ("Jetisu is a heaven on earth").
As for the name "Uli", there is still no explanation from the folklore, nor from the historians.
Some scholars speculate that the major tribes of Uli juz - Uysin (Wusun) and Qangli - are one of the most ancient tribes among Qazaqs, and that may be the reason why the confederation was called the Great Horde.
![[Home]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/home.gif "[Home]")
![[New Topics]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/topics.png "[New Topics]")
![[Help]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/help.gif "[Help]")
![[Search]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/search.gif "[Search]")
![[Login]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/login.gif "[Login]")
![[Register]](http://images.proboards.com/menu/register.gif "[Register]")
![[Search This Thread]](http://images.proboards.com/search2.gif "[Search This Thread]")
![[Share Topic]](http://images.proboards.com/new/buttons/share.png "[Share Topic]")
![[Print]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/print.gif "[Print]")
Author
![[avatar]](http://img447.imageshack.us/img447/4952/oghuzkhan2ih6.jpg "[avatar]")
Logged
![[avatar]](http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d112/bawirsaq/forum_stuff/qusbegi.jpg "[avatar]")
![[image]](http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1745/dontmesskazaksgb1.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5645/kenesarich6.jpg "[image]")
![[image]](http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9412/qazaqtribesintheearly20cmu6.jpg "[image]")
![[msn]](http://images.proboards.com/msn.gif "[msn]")
![[avatar]](http://www.ub-mongolia.mn/images/stories/images/history/boorchi.gif "[avatar]")
![[homepage]](http://images.proboards.com/buttons/www_sm.gif "[homepage]")
![[avatar]](http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/3401/bykkaanak8.jpg "[avatar]")
![[image]](http://www.kyrgyz.ru/images/elgallery/kazakhstan/bigkazaktribalmap.gif "[image]")